Kalkhoven: No merger with IRL necessary

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by Mags
When are we going give this dying horse a shot through the head???

That's a bit harsh on Champ Car, Mags.

Sure, it's not what it once was, but it could become great again.

[The Snout]

Originally posted by jhansen
Actually The Snout is talking a lot of sense on that point. But, to go one further, return on investment would be the true measure. That's where the rubber meets the road so to speak.

That's exactly right jhansen. For what the cars are I think the cost of running in Champ Cars is fine, it's all just relative to return on investment as you say. Give the sponsors good TV ratings and marketing and the $11M for 2 cars isn't an issue.

[Omega99]

All I need is a DeLorean and a flux capacitor and I'll travel back in time and prevent the whole split from happening... Does anyone know where I can get some weapons grade plutonium?









What do you mean fiction?

[The Snout]

Originally posted by Omega99
Does anyone know where I can get some weapons grade plutonium?

Don't try iraq, apparently.

[racinthestreets]

Don't try iraq, apparently.

I believe that is a Bushwhack!

[Dov]

Syria, Iran and North Korea are your best bets for WoMD! Please don't tell them that I sent you....

[Mags]

Originally posted by Kicking-back
That's a bit harsh on Champ Car, Mags.

Sure, it's not what it once was, but it could become great again.

Kicking-Back, you know I was talking about the MERGER talk, NOT Champ cars! I just got back from getting my credentials at Vancouver.

[Mags]

Originally posted by jhansen
I agree Kicking-back. Subsidies abound in North American open wheel racing.

Which is what makes running a Porsche so attractive, I suppose??

[BootsOntheSide]

What about Israel for the weapons?

[Kicking-back]

Can we please leave out the pseudo-political discussion on the Middle East?

This is a motor-racing forum!

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by Mags
Which is what makes running a Porsche so attractive, I suppose??

Hell...you could run a 2-car LMP1 or LMP2 prototype program in the ALMS for less than half of that, and be competitive...

I've run the costs on it....

[mountainstar]

I've heard different costs and obviously they vary quite a bit from front to back of the grid. Greg Ray says he has spent $6 mil already this year. Penske has a $22 million budget. I've heard some champcar teams are on less than $4 mil a car with the highest being almost $10 mil a car.

[Liz]

I bet Dale Coyne doesn't spend $11 million a year on his teams.

The constant harping on this "merger" reminds me of the years before I turned 40 when every time my relatives saw me they would demand "Why don't you get MARRIED?" I knew I was old when they started demanding "Why DIDN'T you get MARRIED?"

Mergers are sometimes not the answer. Although I consider marriage (and what would happen to these two racing series) as not a merger but an acquisition.

[Tim Northcutt]

Those figures cited are "averages".....

Sure...Penske spends about that....

and I'm certain that Dayle Coyne doesn't spend $11 million as well...

Why would Kalkhoven give a bad figure on what an average team spends to run OWRS????

I can tell you that there are IRL teams that spend less than the $8 million, too....I know people with teams that have told me that...

The only point that I made was that you have two spokespersons who represent their respective Series giving a reporter an average cost to run a two-car team in their Series...

and contrary to popular belief (based on those numbers) it costs about $3 million more to run OWRS...

If you have a dispute with it, send an e-mail to Mr. Kalkhoven...

But I knw that from the people I'm acquainted with who are part of IRL teams that the $8 million average for a two-car team in that Series is about right....

If you choose not to believe it, that is your right...but it doesn't make it any less accurate....

[jhansen]

I understand what you're trying to display Tim. On a hard cost basis the IRL is around $3 million dollars cheaper on average. But this really is a moot point in my opinion. As I pointed out, the cost is only a factor relative to the budget. And this will vary on an individual team basis. Some team owners may be able to pull a better sponsorship package together in the OWRS while some will do better in the IRL. Factor in incentives (ie. racer wellfare, or Honda's money) and then you come up with a bottom line. In my opinion, the cost is an underlying factor, but not the primary factor. The real issues here are the philosophical differences between the two series, which holds the merger back presently.

[Tim Northcutt]

I would agree, jhansen....

The only reason why I raised this point is that I've been reading for months on various threads how the other Series was getting so overpriced and so much more expensive than OWRS to race in that the other Series would "implode" and that all of the smaller teams would ultimately come over to OWRS next year because it costs lestt to race there...

These "average" figures for a two-car team say that the notion stated above is a complete myth -- to the tune of about $3 million....

[Snrub]

Originally posted by The Snout
For example $11M compares to $15M-$20M that a Nextel Cup car costs to run a season. So $11M for a 2 car Champ Car program is a very good price.

From a technical perspective, I agree, but I disagree from a series viability standpoint. If are a company and have the opportunity to be the primary sponsor for CART at $8M or Nascar for $10M, which are you going to pick? Clearly Nascar would be better bang for the buck.

[Kicking-back]

Sadly.

[zerO]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
I would agree, jhansen....

The only reason why I raised this point is that I've been reading for months on various threads how the other Series was getting so overpriced and so much more expensive than OWRS to race in that the other Series would "implode" and that all of the smaller teams would ultimately come over to OWRS next year because it costs lestt to race there...

These "average" figures for a two-car team say that the notion stated above is a complete myth -- to the tune of about $3 million....

Hey Tim,
and why is it that you are still disputing this kaka and bringing it up whenever it is NOT neccessary ???

For some strange reason KK had said that actual numbers are lower in IRL since there is an engine support system... but in case of Greg Ray it just isn't happening - that is why he had stated the truth: he needs between $8-10mil to run just a single car throughout the season - he doesn't get free engines from Honda like the others... why would he lie ?!... (and John Barnes said the same thing, btw)... now, compare that with Panther's or Floyd's budgets... and what do you see ???... is it cheaper in IRL than CCWS ??? - I DO NOT THINK SO !!!!!!... if it was cheaper then Hemelgarn would not play his monkey game !!!... if it was cheaper then Conquest would have stayed in IRL !!!... if it was cheaper then Menard wouldn't fold... if it was cheaper then you'd see Buddy Lazier in a car !!!... if it was cheaper then you'd never hear Penske calling for "unification" !!!... if it was cheaper then noone would be worrying what will happen when Chevy and/or Toyota leave !!!... if it was cheaper then we wouldn't have this silly conversation !!!... evidently it isn't cheaper in IRL !!!... think about it ?!... TOYOTA & HONDA HAVE CARTERIZED IRL !!! and we all know it = today it is more expensive to run in IRL than in CCWS and everybody knows it ?!... and that is why everybody (from Roger Penske down) is (EDIT: "worried") when thinking of 2005 or 2006 - IRL's future surely isn't looking all that pink now...

zerO

[Kicking-back]

Both series have their positives and negatives. Lets not try to pretent one = all good and the other = all bad.

[Tim Northcutt]

First of all, Bachaelart, Walker and others wouldn't have gone to CART last year if it wasn't for Pook's welfare checks to help make it a better deal....

Second, I don't see Hemelgarn racing in either series....even with his $1 Reynards that he "leased" from Forsythe.....and I don't see Lazier in any Champ car lineup, either....

Third, Panther & Menard are together this year...aren't they running TWO cars for that $8-$10 million????

Fourth, if Grey Ray has spent that kind of money on one car, I'd have to ask him where his money has gone.....

I know people from IRL teams who have told me what it costs them to race....

One of those teams ran a two-car effort on $4 million last year....

BOTTOM LINE:

The numbers cited by Kalkhoven and the IRL spokesman are "averages"...

From the info I have gotten from people I know, they are pretty much accurate....

Penske want the merger, because he thinks it will be better for Open-Wheeled racing....

He is independently wealthy...he could run a team with his own checkbook, and no sponsors, on his current budget for at least a decade and still live high on the hog.....

Sorry, zer0...I don't buy it....

[mueber]

sigh.

[Kicking-back]

Tim Northcutt, once again your analysis is spot on.

You see the good and bad in both series and call it like it is, rather than having a pre-determined bias.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by mueber
sigh.

I'm weary of it too, mueber.....

I really am....

But I refuse to sit back and allow less than factual propaganda and opinions go unchallenged...

When one of the three owners of a racing Series publicly states the average cost of racing a full season in that Series, and a spokesman for a competing Series state its actual costs, that seems pretty factual to me...

and I confirmed the numbers with people I know who race in that competeing Series....

I've stated this on many occasions....

I'm not big on rumors and innuendo....I'd rather deal in facts....

and unfortunately, both sides can't reach enough common ground to get together and make a merger work....

So every day, when I come to the two open-wheeled Forums, I read more propaganda, and more name-calling, and more wild rumors...instead of real "meat and potatoes" information and subjects both on the track and off it, that affect the sport...

[Tim Northcutt]

Sorry... I clicked too soon...

Conclusion to the above post:


and it is sad that it has to be this way....

I wish it weren't....

But if I want to follow the sport, I guess I have to deal with it...

We all do...