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View Poll Results: Which track will be added to the 2016 WEC calendar?
Montreal 10 16.13%
Mexico City 9 14.52%
Monza 23 37.10%
Interlagos 14 22.58%
Other, .... [please name] 6 9.68%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 19 Aug 2015, 03:09 (Ref:3566862)   #26
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I think Monza is the most likely if they actually add a venue.
Mexico City would be very convenient for me though.
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Old 19 Aug 2015, 05:36 (Ref:3566875)   #27
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I know that circuit talk is a big deal right now in this thread, but I'm wondering about evolutionary changes to the LMP1 cars. One of the big areas where it seems that Audi are a cut above Porsche and Toyota this year is in aero. This is mostly with the front end treatment on the R18 and how on the Silverstone sprint bodywork and the high and low downforce evolutions of their LM package they dealt with the air flow to the front diffuser and especially the front tuning vanes mounted behind the diffuser.

That would mean some pretty significant changes to the front ends of the Porsche and Toyota LMP1s--the TS050 would have to revert to the open nose of the 2012 TS030 and the Porsche would need a pretty major front bodywork redesign, and then there'd have to be changes to the rear to balance out the changes made to the front.

But would those teams make such major aero changes with one more year of these regs existing in their current form? Depending on the resources TMG are allowed, they can pull the trigger, since the TS050 is set to be pretty much a new car, even if the chassis design carries over (unlikely IMO, but stranger things have happened). I don't know if Porsche will, not due to lack of time or resources, but the 919 has always had a pretty low-drag aero philosophy behind it. Even though the Audi LM package can be as described by one driver as "high downforce, low drag", that would mean a pretty significant re-think for the Porsche from a packaging/aero philosophy stand point.

And as we saw last year--and might see this year--Porsche's HD spec car might be just a slightly tweaked LM package aimed at improving downforce marginally while retaining the best of the LM's low drag specs.
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Old 19 Aug 2015, 06:52 (Ref:3566881)   #28
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Why do people think that Monza is so likely - there is talk of them not being able to keep the GP and the sportscar races there previously had a pretty poor attendance. Fine if we have a works P1 Ferrari on the way but otherwise I am not sure there is a business case for it.

I think another race in the Americas is the most likely and of those I would prefer Montreal followed by Interlagos
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Old 19 Aug 2015, 10:34 (Ref:3566911)   #29
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But back to the main point, no, I'd rather see the series at the right venues than my local ones. I don't have much interest in championships, I just watch races that interest me, so if I don't want to watch it in the first place, I won't go to it anywhere in the world. If it's somewhere I like, I can save up and aspire to do it once.
Curious, why isn't Silverstone the right venue? The track layout as it is now may not be what everyone likes but there's nothing wrong with the facilities!? I think one of the major world racing championships missing out on a country which is home to a large percentage of it's followers doesn't make sense. Just move it to August or July please ACO?

Personally and slightly selfishly I would love it to go to Donington but that's just me.
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Old 19 Aug 2015, 11:20 (Ref:3566917)   #30
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True, it was better when it was in August, but that was on the previous iteration of the circuit so I'm biased.

To me it's not the right venue because it looks ridiculous both on TV and in person when there are so many tens of thousands of empty seats. It's also an unnecessarily huge venue for 30 cars. Same problem as COTA and Shanghai.

On a personal level, they also destroyed the remaining credibility of the circuit for me when they removed the Abbey/Bridge sequence, which was by far my favourite part of the track. Even when they put the chicane at Abbey it was fine, because when you stood trackside between the two corners they were exiting the chicane and pushing towards the wall where you were stood.

In addition to the extra carpark-runoffs that they've added all around the circuit, there's almost nowhere on the track I want to stand.

Finally, the venue is just not friendly to spectators at all. The old pits used to have plenty of atmosphere but the new complex is miles away, there are twice as many buses for VIPs and photographers than for the great unwashed and the whole place is bereft of atmosphere and scenery, like a video game model that they haven't finished yet.

Chiana has a dislike of Spa, but when you're at Spa there are loads of great, unspoiled sections of the track. At Silverstone, there is not really anywhere that I can stand still for an hour an enjoy it. Maybe the fence at the entry to Vale, maybe the inside at the entrance to Beckett's, but not really. I used to spend hours there, on the outside of Bridge and on the exit of Club (when you could see from Stowe to Abbey), but no longer.

So personally, that's why I'd rather go to Spa, Monza or the Nurburgring (although I detest the new start sequence) once every two years than Silverstone each year.

Does it have a large percentage of the WEC's followers? Sportscar racing in general seems to really struggle here compared to Belgium, France and Germany, as far as I can tell; the only sportscar event that attracts over 50,000 Brits each year isn't even held in the country!

Judging by the number of posters on here from Yorkshire though, we should hold an endurance race on the streets of Leeds if we want to change that...

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Old 19 Aug 2015, 11:47 (Ref:3566921)   #31
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New start sequence?
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Old 19 Aug 2015, 12:07 (Ref:3566924)   #32
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I understand some dislike the new Silverstone, but when the argument has points like it looks silly because there are empty seats then we might as well just bin the entire WEC and only do Le Mans, because the attendance isn't what some might consider good enough.
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Old 19 Aug 2015, 16:58 (Ref:3566965)   #33
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Why do people think that Monza is so likely - there is talk of them not being able to keep the GP
Mostly because Bernie is money hungry.
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and the sportscar races there previously had a pretty poor attendance.
The WSC didn't have the same, hmmm..panache the WEC does.
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Fine if we have a works P1 Ferrari on the way but otherwise I am not sure there is a business case for it.p
Oh. I think there is a massive case for it. The WEC would benefit itself by going to a classic venue.
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I think another race in the Americas is the most likely and of those I would prefer Montreal followed by Interlagos
It is, though, I doubt we see either for 2016. Brazil is such an outlier, and frankly, a poor venue.
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 00:48 (Ref:3567076)   #34
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New start sequence?
Yeah, sorry, bad choice of phrase; the Mercedes-Benz Arena complex at the start; the old, cambered turn 1/2 chicane was much better IMO.
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 00:52 (Ref:3567077)   #35
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I understand some dislike the new Silverstone, but when the argument has points like it looks silly because there are empty seats then we might as well just bin the entire WEC and only do Le Mans, because the attendance isn't what some might consider good enough.
Spa only has a few stands and benefits massively from this. Fuji is the same, it has enough people to fill a decent percentage of the stands, even in a monsoon. Bahrain was never built for more than a handful of spectators, so it's the others that are the biggest offenders to me. But especially COTA and Silverstone, where the stands are 10% full at best.
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 03:27 (Ref:3567101)   #36
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Mostly because Bernie is money hungry.
According to some numbers (http://i.imgur.com/9brV743.jpg) Monza already has the second lowest fee. (Interesting table this, I bet Shangai & Bahrain pays WEC similar [relatively] excessive fee).

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The WSC didn't have the same, hmmm..panache the WEC does.
The old WSC? Funny claim. And even if you meant only Monza-panache, (E)LMS visited Monza 2007-2008, so probably a bit more relevant to look at those races.
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 04:08 (Ref:3567108)   #37
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According to some numbers (http://i.imgur.com/9brV743.jpg) Monza already has the second lowest fee. (Interesting table this, I bet Shangai & Bahrain pays WEC similar [relatively] excessive fee).
The WEC is still cheaper. Substantially.


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The old WSC? Funny claim. And even if you meant only Monza-panache, (E)LMS visited Monza 2007-2008, so probably a bit more relevant to look at those races.
The ELMS had lots of trouble during the 07-08 seasons. Lots of great cars, great racing... No promotion. No Audi vs. Porsche in 1000hp hybrids, no Ferrari, Aston Martin battles....nothing insane, or exciting.

Just a typical, well subscribed, boring endurance series.

Lots has changed since then.
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“We’re trying to close the doors without embarrassing ourselves, the France family and embarrassing (the) Grand American Series,” he said in the deposition. “There is no money. There is no purse. There’s nothing.”
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 07:26 (Ref:3567141)   #38
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Spa only has a few stands and benefits massively from this. Fuji is the same, it has enough people to fill a decent percentage of the stands, even in a monsoon. Bahrain was never built for more than a handful of spectators, so it's the others that are the biggest offenders to me. But especially COTA and Silverstone, where the stands are 10% full at best.
See, that's a ridiculous way of measuring success.

For example, if Silverstone seats 10,000 people and 5000 come through the door, lets say 3500 of those will sit in seats (with the rest being dotted around the circuit), which means the grandstands are 30% full.

If Spa seats 5000 people, and 2500 attend, and 2000 sit in grandstands, then they're 40% full.

So does this mean Spa is more successful because the smaller grandstands are fuller? No, it has half the attendance. I understand you don't like Silverstone, and I completely understand the dislike of the removal of Abbey and Bridge, but you can hardly say "it has too many grand stands for viewing!" as a legitimate downside. Saying "It looks stupid" doesn't really stand up, when the racing is utterly amazing - as WEC and ELMS were at Silverstone this year.
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 07:56 (Ref:3567150)   #39
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I certainly see your point and I'm certainly overplaying it because it's a personal bugbear, but at the same time dismissing it completely is not right either. Like it or not, the series is trying to maintain a perception and part of that perception is a popularity. Formula 1 can justifiably claim people want to go to see it and part of that is because other people want to go see it.

We've effectively been told (and I'm happy they admitted it) that choosing tracks suitable for VIPs is more important than choosing tracks for the general public or for the racing, but do you not think some of those Corporate Hospitality guests must look out at the empty stands and wonder why it's not more popular. Or watching races on TV, there's little saying "this is popular" when all the shots you see are clearly unpopulated by people.

A lot of photographers include the crowd in their shots where possible and it really helps to capture an event's atmosphere and makes it more appealing, more desirable, more marketing-friendly.

Having an event 'seem' successful is just as important as having an event that is successful, when people not present at it are one of, if not the, key audience.
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 08:55 (Ref:3567169)   #40
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The ELMS had lots of trouble during the 07-08 seasons. Lots of great cars, great racing... No promotion. No Audi vs. Porsche in 1000hp hybrids, no Ferrari, Aston Martin battles....nothing insane, or exciting.

Just a typical, well subscribed, boring endurance series.

Lots has changed since then.
In 2008 LMS there was full season Audi vs Peugeot battle, Peugeot attempted to bring and market an ill-fated hybrid 908, Porsche RS Spyders roamed in P2, big GT1 cars were still alive, in GT2 the big Ferrari vs Porsche wasn't any less than now but to the contrary, in none of the four classes there was proam crap so they hadn't have to live with that, Silverstone attempted to gain attention and notice by having free tickets (also it was sponsored by Autosport so bigger explosure through them), and both Eurosport and Motorst TV were covering the series
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 09:02 (Ref:3567174)   #41
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I certainly see your point and I'm certainly overplaying it because it's a personal bugbear, but at the same time dismissing it completely is not right either. Like it or not, the series is trying to maintain a perception and part of that perception is a popularity. Formula 1 can justifiably claim people want to go to see it and part of that is because other people want to go see it.

We've effectively been told (and I'm happy they admitted it) that choosing tracks suitable for VIPs is more important than choosing tracks for the general public or for the racing, but do you not think some of those Corporate Hospitality guests must look out at the empty stands and wonder why it's not more popular. Or watching races on TV, there's little saying "this is popular" when all the shots you see are clearly unpopulated by people.

A lot of photographers include the crowd in their shots where possible and it really helps to capture an event's atmosphere and makes it more appealing, more desirable, more marketing-friendly.

Having an event 'seem' successful is just as important as having an event that is successful, when people not present at it are one of, if not the, key audience.
Unfortunately for WEC to survive in its current state (which is big LMP-H with advance hybrid systems), those VIPs are important. Fortunately for Silverstone, the VIPs will be looking out from the new building at a pretty full grandstand. Even in the ILMC days, that grandstand at the new start line was actually pretty full. Ok there was empty ones down at Stowe, but that isn't relevant if we're talking about VIPs looking out of the hospitality suite.

In this regard, you might as well take WEC to Knockhill. It has a grandstand. Well, it's a shed, but if you take the family it'll look full. And a shorter circuit means less area to fill around it, therefore less people looks like a lot more!

Whilst it is depressing that the series has to cater for VIPs more than others, I also don't see why that's a particularly bad thing for Silverstone. Like you, I miss Bridge and Abbey, but I cannot deny how utterly epic the ELMS and WEC events were this year. And even if you ignore that and want to chose other circuits, I don't really think that anything else in the UK is good enough to host an event. Donington is probably closest, but I'd still take Silverstone over that.
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 09:04 (Ref:3567176)   #42
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In 2008 LMS there was full season Audi vs Peugeot battle, Peugeot attempted to bring and market an ill-fated hybrid 908, Porsche RS Spyders roamed in P2, big GT1 cars were still alive, in GT2 the big Ferrari vs Porsche wasn't any less than now but to the contrary, in none of the four classes there was proam crap so they hadn't have to live with that, Silverstone attempted to gain attention and notice by having free tickets (also it was sponsored by Autosport so bigger explosure through them), and both Eurosport and Motorst TV were covering the series
The free tickets were a promotion by Peugeot. I had one, but was unable to attend. They wanted a big crowd for them winning the title. Of course they lost what should've been a relatively easy championship, despite winning 4 out of 5 races.
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 09:08 (Ref:3567178)   #43
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It was still promo by someone who wanted people to come (French to British place of all things), I haven't seen anyone handing free tickets for 6 hours of Bahrain finale to boost the 4000 camel attendance
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 09:36 (Ref:3567184)   #44
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Regarding the empty stands at Silverstone comment, I was there this year and because of the (very good in my opinion!) bus service to various corners on the circuit, almost everyone kept moving around meaning the open grandstands were never full. The ones that were open on the start/finish straight were almost full to capacity at the start and the end of the race as far as I could tell.
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 09:47 (Ref:3567188)   #45
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Regarding the empty stands at Silverstone comment, I was there this year and because of the (very good in my opinion!) bus service to various corners on the circuit, almost everyone kept moving around meaning the open grandstands were never full. The ones that were open on the start/finish straight were almost full to capacity at the start and the end of the race as far as I could tell.
This was also the case when I attended the ILMC event at Silverstone. The main grandstand at the new pits was full, whilst others navigated round the circuit. Certainly my group I was with, we started at the S/F and we went backwards around the entire circuit through the 6 hours.

This cannot be done in an F1 race as its too short and grandstand tickets lock you into a place. However during a 6 hour event you can walk the entire length of the circuit, which is always going to make the event more interesting to the spectator, even if the perception is that there is less people.
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 11:47 (Ref:3567216)   #46
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I'm probably being biased, but I would vote for Montreal- the Canadian fans would definitely support a race. Personally I would rather see it at Mosport (CTMP) or Mont Tremblant (remember both these venues have hosted sportscars before), but I know the WEC's stance on running F1 tracks (although I do believe that Mont Tremblant does have a high FIA grading, even if it iesn't F1).

That being said, I'm on the verge of relocating to Australia, so Bathurst would be nice.....just my .02!
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 12:15 (Ref:3567222)   #47
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Today's Mosport-CTMP-whatever has all the asphalt runoff, but not the garages and F1 facilities they lust for.

Mont-Tremblant is Grade 3 so they couldn't race on that even if they wanted. It is my second favorite track in all of North America though, so it was always sad not to have even the regional series there. Even Grand-Sham stopped going to that awesome place. Now the only non club/historic series returning per year is Ferrari Challenge NA, which doesn't get any coverage anyway so basically there is nothing.


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Old 20 Aug 2015, 16:23 (Ref:3567264)   #48
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The ELMS had lots of trouble during the 07-08 seasons. Lots of great cars, great racing... No promotion. No Audi vs. Porsche in 1000hp hybrids, no Ferrari, Aston Martin battles....nothing insane, or exciting.

Just a typical, well subscribed, boring endurance series.

Lots has changed since then.
I was also trying to say that ELMS there wasn't an amazing success, but It is still more relevant to WEC than the last WSC races there decades ago. So I don't quite understand what your original point was in regards to Monza.
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 17:23 (Ref:3567281)   #49
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Originally Posted by MoMedic9019 View Post
The ELMS had lots of trouble during the 07-08 seasons. Lots of great cars, great racing... No promotion. No Audi vs. Porsche in 1000hp hybrids, no Ferrari, Aston Martin battles....nothing insane, or exciting.
You need to check your facts, 2008 was arguably the strongest season the ELMS ever had with Audi & Peugeot going head to head all season long.
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 17:30 (Ref:3567284)   #50
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If it wasn't for the economic disaster we could have had epic full seasons in ALMS and ELMS 2009, just like 08

(though they were still pretty good considering circumstances, better than now IMO )
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