BMW staying in F1 - but where?

[Mark Webber]

I think Sauber as I was saying before . For a team which has had no Factory support over the last couple of year they have done a outstanding job. They would make much better use of BMW's power than Williams ever will

[A. C. E. motors]

The 2002 Ferrari was the best car of the field. It will still be better than most F1 cars this year. Sauber would be foolish not to use the 2002 Ferrari when they get the chance.

[ASCII Man]

Hmmmm, a works BMW engine is worse than a customer Ferrari engine??

Right....

[Valve Bounce]

Ferrari, McLaren and Renault have their own engines. So which other team can do better than Williams and possibly win races and the Championship?

[Amaroo Park]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
Ferrari, McLaren and Renault have their own engines. So which other team can do better than Williams and possibly win races and the Championship?

You forgot Toyota, but there are no other teams that could do a better job than Williams are now

[TeddyG]

Yep BMW are screwed right now...they can't keep ahold of F1's best engine forever and they are wasting their best years on an underperforming team...as you said not much they can do about it though, no place else to go!

[BSchneiderFan]

Supposedly there was a (distant) possibility of a BAR-BMW link-up (capital letters a-go-go), but I think BMW will, and should, stay with Williams. They're the best option out there.

[TeddyG]

Well if Honda starts performing to their expectations and BMW falls off their perch (which will happen inevitably) I could see an eventual Williams-Honda and BAR-BMW swap however now that BAR has Williams best aero guy (Willis) I don't know if Williams would be the better option for Honda. BAR may have a better car than Williams by next year or the year after.

[Irv the Swerve]

Originally posted by TeddyG
Yep BMW are screwed right now...they can't keep ahold of F1's best engine forever and they are wasting their best years on an underperforming team...as you said not much they can do about it though, no place else to go!

Ah Teddy come on.
What about Minardi?

[Mania]

BMW have a right to be ticked off at Williams...but unless they plan to start their own team...I dont see any other team at present where they would be better off.

I think the boys at Munich must make a decision whether they wish to start their own team anytime in the next 3-4 years..if they do then they would be better off leaving Williams and just start their own team from 04 or 05 onwards.

On the other hand..if they dont have any long term plans to start their own team..then they can buy into Williams like Frank has suggested..that would create greater harmony between Williams and BMW and the people at Grove would be more open to receiving help from BMW with regard to chassis development etc.

[JohnSSC]

Originally posted by TeddyG
Well if Honda starts performing to their expectations and BMW falls off their perch (which will happen inevitably) I could see an eventual Williams-Honda and BAR-BMW swap however now that BAR has Williams best aero guy (Willis) I don't know if Williams would be the better option for Honda. BAR may have a better car than Williams by next year or the year after.

That is great! I can see it now: "Stuttgart, Germany. BMW announces they are dumping the underperforming Williams F1 Team to power that perennial tribute to Mediocrity, BAR. Hans Vroomgestehen, Chief Engineer said that the decision was made after watching BAR's consistent record of never winning, avoiding podiums and thinking that 'Pole Position' is sinful in the eyes of the Church."

I can't wait for the announcement! That could only be topped by someone buying Prost and Arrows...

[Snrub]

BMW is losing out big time right now. They've invested big money to make the engine and it is not being showcased in a manner that is bringing the desired return on investment.

Leaving Williams isn't an option. What team is going to do better. If you look a few years down the line, there are few other teams that you can be assured will be competitive.

I fail to see why any manufacturer couldn't sell engines for $10 million for the year to lesser teams. The R&D is already done. It's just a matter of materials and assembly. That can be farmed out if they don't have the man power. 18 races X 2 drivers = 36 engines. 10mil/36= $277,778 per engine. Seems pretty reasonable to cover the costs. Plus it's not like the manufacturer doesn't get something in return.

[TeddyG]

ohhh John let me add you to my list of people that find it extremly difficult to read posts intelligently.

I was saying that it is inevitable that BMW will evenutually fall from their pedestal as it is likely that a larger manufacturer will eclipse them in producing the best engine (possibly Honda???)...this could be in the near future or a few years down the road.

Now if Honda does eventually produce the engine that they have been promising all these years, and BAR is still underperforming, they may opt for a switch to Williams (if Honda's engine is better than BMW's that is) and of course providing that Williams is still producing a better car than BAR (which I stated may not be the case if Willis performs up to expectations)

If this were to happen BMW might have few options (remember that they would no longer have the best engine at this point) but to join BAR...however my guess is that were this scenario to play out BMW would most likely withdraw from F1 altogether.

Of course I wasn't saying BMW would move to BAR right now! jessums give me some credit...but anything is possible in the future right? Honda and Williams have been partners before, why not again? A Williams-Honda, BAR-BMW swap is not totally unthinkable it all depends on how things develope in the years to come.

[Red]

Teddy, am I already on that list? If not yet, do make ammends!! Because I really couldn't read you post, let alone intelligently. I stopped when I found "BMW", "larger manufacturer" and "inevitably will eclipse" contained in same sentence... (never got it to "near future" )

[TeddyG]

Typical Red butting into a conversation he was not involved in, and makes no contribution to, for the sole purpose of making pointless or flame-baiting remarks...got all that? Or should I slow it down some more for you?

And to speak of intelligence??? I will not even bother pointing out all the grammatical and spelling errors you just made in your little post.

Congrats yet again
(oh and rest assured you were #1 on the list! )

[JonesF1]

Why would BMW go to a less profressional team with a smaller budget? They either have to stick it out with Williams or leave F1. Building their own team isnt much of an option either.

Letting Willis go to BAR wasnt a great idea but it wasnt a bad one either. Hes not even close to being a Brawn or Newey (or Gascyone?). Sure, they finished 2nd last year with his design but the Mercedes engine was garbage and Renault was nowhere, now they have stiffer competition. Theres no reason for BMW to leave just because Williams is underperforming, theyre still a consistent top 3 team.

[TeddyG]

I agree Jones I said BMW would most likly exit F1 if they couldn't make it work with Williams. I don't see them as a engine manufacturer that would accept a step down (well none would really )...still doesn't mean that a Williams-Honda reunification is impossible.

[Glen]

Looking back to last year, I don't think there's much shame in coming second to one of the greatest cars of all time. And even in 2003 Williams are not badly placed. Let's not forget that the season is only five races old and many of the Williams favourite circuits are still to come... The A1-Ring is good for them, with the emphasis on hard acceleration and braking, and with a smooth track surface. Monaco saw pole for them in 2002, and they have always gone nicely in Canada. In three races time we will have got to season half-way mark nd then would be a fairer time to judge.

Forgot to add that Monaco and Canada were DNFs for Montoya... because of BMW engine failures!

[Red]

Originally posted by TeddyG
Congrats yet again
(oh and rest assured you were #1 on the list! )

Thank you... (Phew, and that was a relief )

Anyway I wasn't involved in the discussion but I will now.... If only you'll slow down even more for me, and actually clarify what are we talking about? I really though that it's about BMW ditching Williams (or maybe not) because they're not exactly pleased with their chassis which isn't exactly a match for their one of the best (if not the best) engines on grid.... Now, that I've finally fully comprehend your post (I read it only 5 times, isn't that an achievement? ) I understand that it's the other way around: Honda will inevitably and soon enough eclipse BMW so actually Williams will dump BMW for Honda. Now I got it...

(Sheese, poor Jacques, he had faith in Honda, only to find out that when they start to deliver they'll swithc teams )

[BSchneiderFan]

Jacques hasn't shown THAT much faith in Honda; whereas JB, before he began his first season with BAR, went to Japan to visit the Honda facilities, something JV has signally failed to do. But wait! Jacques Villeneuve taking a team for granted and waiting for the world to revolve around him??? Shurely shome mistake?

[429CJ]

How about: BMW buying Jaguar team from Ford, witch will continue as engine supplier, and then we will have a BMW F1 and Williams-Jaguar.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by colinbond
You forgot Toyota, but there are no other teams that could do a better job than Williams are now

No!! I didn't forget Toyota - I discounted them. If you think Toyota can win the championship, then you'd better cheer for Catarract instead. (that's the joke I tell about this lady visiting an optometrist. He says: Lady you have a catarract", No! No! she replied - I have a Toyota. )

[JohnSSC]

TeddyG, if Red is indeed among the group in which you have cast me, Thank You!!

Like Red I took multiple passes at your post (being that I am lacking in cranial horsepower) before I got the full import of what you were trying to state. The result was my insignificant scrawlings.

Please help me understand though why on Earth BMW would go to BARF? I mean, never have so many done so little with so much! But now, potentially, some day in the far distant future it will be Williams, actually who dump BMW to go back to Honda who could not succeed with BARF because JV did not go to the factory, as BSchneiderFan points out.

Red, one of these days I will arrive in Bucharest and over a beer or two, or more, we can discuss our admiration for the Red Team and speculate as to when Sauber will wise up and dump the Ferrari motor for the Renault...

[JohnSSC]

You don't mind if I Lace as well, do you? It may be a bit of a wait for Willie to dump BMW, so I may as well have something to eat.

[TeddyG]

No Red if you had read the entire thread you would know that the question asked here was that; "BMW have decided to stay in F1 beyond 2004 and we were trying to guess what team they would supply as Williams hasn't exactly performed well."

To sum up - Most people believe BMW will stay with Williams, as there isn't exactly anyplace better to go at the moment. I also believe this FOR NOW.

But I was just throwing my two cents in that it is possible that BMW will in the years to come fall off a little and no longer be producing the best engine (indeed the only place you can go is down when you are at the top right?) Since this is a possibility I was only suggesting that BMW may be forced out of Williams if another engine manufacturer are producing a better engine.

Since the other engine maufacturers are closly linked to their teams (Mercedes-McLaren, Cosworth-Jaguar, Renault-Renault, etc.) Honda seems to be the only maufacturer that has the resources and is not very strongly linked to any team to tempt Williams into an eventual deal.

Okay I know I don't explain things as clearly as some would like so I'll try and break down what would have to happen for what I am saying to come true;

1. BMW would no longer be producing the best engine

-Somewhat likely. As I said before the only place you can go when you are at the top is down eventually.

2. Honda would start to produce a much better engine. (One of the best, if not the best in F1)

-Less likely than 1. but it's what Honda have been promising and they have been at it for 5 years with what has been called the biggest engine development team in F1. Likely that they will produce one day.

3. BAR would continue to disappoint in chassis/aero production.

-Well they have done it consistently since their introduction to F1, hopefully Willis will change this, but it is possible that they will still fail to perform.

4. Williams would continue to produce a better chassis than BAR.

-Although BAR stole Williams top aero guy it is likely that Williams will respond as they are a large team with many resouces so it is very possible that they will stay on top of BAR in chassis/aero development.

So if all these points come true and stay that way for a few years. You may have a situation where Williams become frustrated with BMW and Honda become frustrated with BAR. It would then be in Williams and Honda's benefit to link up...leaving a possible BAR-BMW connection. But as I said before it is more likely that BMW would exit F1 rather than join with BAR...probably leaving BAR to lease an engine from another manufacturer and sealing their fate in F1.


So there you have it...my two cents on the POSSIBLE future for BMW in F1.
And you can lace all you want John as I did say before that it could be awhile, if it happens at all!