Drivers vs Spectators

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by John Turner

'Master and apprentice at it again' alert! Come on gents, this actually isn't quite true is it. Apart from Ollie, there's Joe Twyman, Ed Jowsey, Will Schryver, Mick Lyons and Luke Stevens, and this year even last years Formula Ford champ, Calum Macleod has had a a crack at it. And these are just those that came to immediate mind. I also know of others that would like to have a go and they don't necessarily want to become stars.

Busted!
To be fair I dont think JR was having a pop merely in his brusque manner stating fact! Most of them end up driving for him at some point anyway so he cant be that against them!!! From my standpoint the ones I know in that list are genuine enthusiasts so good luck to them!
What each has done in modern stuff is irrelevant but I am pretty certain that Ollie is the most successful in it of the regular historic young guns and going forward is doing more in that and treating historics as a hobby - and that is the point that JR and I were trying to make.
There is a growing band of participants who are treating this whole thing far to seriously this is a hobby and nothing more - if you want to become serious and have your pits to yourself etc.. go and do the Porsche series supporting the GP circus!

[terence]

Yes exactly Simon,as I have often said,the likelyhood of Bernie phoning anyone in Historics is quite remote.!!

We are talking Hello magazine,are we not.?

[ford prefect]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Autosport.

Thankyou.

[John Turner]

Ok, we've picked up on one point raised by Jill and run with it. Spin offs are good but it has taken us away from the thread topic and is worthy of its own thread so I have copied and edited the relevant posts over to a new thread to discuss the specific issue of young drivers in historic motorsport.

[LYNX]

What is difficult to understand on this Forum is why certain people hijack any theme to get on their favourite soapbox. The theme began as Drivers v Spectators, reading some of these posts one would think it was against participants in Historic Racing. As for Goodwood we all know that if you blot your copy book you are never invited again!

[John Turner]

Jill, it's in the nature of discussion that participants pick up on one issue and go off at a tangent from the main topic. It's one of the reasons why people like me are around to deal with it when it occurs on forums. In cases like this one, it's not a problem. For me it has created a new topic of discussion and I have addressed it accordingly with a new thread.

[terence]

That obviously depends on you're name Lynx.What no-one should forget is that we provide a spectator "sport",the more involved those spectators feel,talking to drivers/owners/mechanics et al,then so much the better.
Many spectators have a favorite Marque of car and its only in the nature to want to get up close for a better look or chat about it.I think that Motion recognise that fact!

[simon drabble]

Jill at the risk of going off on another tangent some can blot it and come back Fearless Frank the Forgiven comes to mind.... and maybe that is relevant because Goodwod is the perfect example of spectator and competitor getting everything they want....

[John Turner]

'Fearless Frank the Forgiven'! Love that; never actually heard that title before!

I think that it is fair to say that John left Goodwood of his own volition and really isn't that bothered whether he is invited again. I can understand his reasons; I'm only concerned he continues to bring his cars to as many other historic events as possible so that I, as a spectator, continue to enjoy seeing them. To me most Historic racing has an ambience and a generally relaxed approach that doesn't occur in other forms (and I do go to contemporary race meetings, too) and it is down to organisers to ensure that atmosphere continues to prevail for both competitors and spectators alike.

[john ruston]

....and some people don't want to go back!

[John Turner]

..... to Goodwood.

Having been 10 years running, with little change in format, I've decided not to go this year although I'm disappointed that they have chosen this year to reintroduce the 9 hour revival race, which I would have liked to have seen but it's not enough to change my mind. I'm going to the Britcar 24 hours at Silverstone instead!

[john ruston]

So all concerned understand my Goodwood position ,as I havn't mentioned it for days, is that it is very good place for spectators and an extremely well organised spectacle but being President of the Inverted Snob Society can't stand the phony contrived atmosphere and believe it or not am not that good at being told what to do.Thats the end of that

Back to the Prefects point-I think Motorhomes,Transporters,Bikes etc should be kept out of the Paddock Pits area.It works at LMC and Goodwood so why not everywhere.We as entrants rent a space and a piece of road to race on,thats all .The circuit owners need income and to get it they need people through the gate to enable us to all continue to play weather in role of Spectators or entrants.Spa 6 hrs meeting is at least as spectacular meeting as Goodwood but with next to no spectators

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Spa 6 hrs meeting is at least as spectacular meeting as Goodwood but with next to no spectators

Never have understood this. There was a poster in trackside a few weeks ago worried about a trip to Spa and we suggested he came along with one of the entrants for the six hours, he said nope he'd sort out transport for the 24hrs sports car race.

Seems to me that he missed an opportunity simply because he would have been locked out of the paddock/pits, got nowhere near the drivers and the spectacle would have been as bland as a F1 race. Albeit I am a fan of endurance racing.

But there you go.

[terence]

Originally Posted by john ruston

So all concerned understand my Goodwood position ,as I havn't mentioned it for days, is that it is very good place for spectators and an extremely well organised spectacle but being President of the Inverted Snob Society can't stand the phony contrived atmosphere and believe it or not am not that good at being told what to do.Thats the end of that.

I quite agree John,I at least still have the option of saying "No"

[Moosehead]

Back to the oringinal theme - As a speccie I don't mind transporters / motorhomes being in the paddock, however, I do want to see the cars so it is disapointing when they are kept hidden behind closed garage doors or gazebo.

As a driver, I want to be able to tend to my car without a 10 minute hike to and from my tools & spares. I want to be able to set up a small table and deckchairs as a nod towards a bit of comfort and have somewhere to eat and drink and if possible have a litlle shelter from the elements.

As some sort of compromise is probably needed then perhaps a limit of 1 tender vehicle per race car and if necessary a limit on the size of that tender. Obviously thats going to be a little tricky when someone is running multi cars or when the car is 'proffesionally' looked after but that can be pre -organised.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Moosehead is on the money. Having your car far from your equipment is unworkable and just plain ridiculous, conversely filling the paddock with gear and vehicles you don't need is just plain unfair to your fellow competitors.

Surely, the promoter can issue each competitor with a space of x metres by y metres. If you and another competitor choose to pool your spaces, then good luck to you.

[simon drabble]

which is what they do for the 6 Hour teams and it mostly works well.

[john ruston]

It's not ridiculous or unworkable at either Goodwood or LMC and giving areas of space ,as Oldtimer GP,just means trucks,motorhomes etc in Paddock.Spa 6 hrs has very few Spectators so you can have what you want in the paddock'The upper paddock at tha Ring was always a zoo but understood it was due to change this year.

[simon drabble]

at Goodwood you can drop off all the toolboxes etc when you set up on the Thursday - if it needs more than that it probably needs a full workshop...

motorhomes have no place in the immediate paddock area at any meeting IMHO

[john ruston]

Both Goodwood and LMC allow you to deliver and drop off equipment immediately before the race and pick it up after the meeting finishes.Problem is that if for some reason you retire they both want you to stay and kick your heels until the meetings over.I do not ever want to do this but understand they have a point if they have charged people to come through the gate.It costs money for a Team to stay and this is where the conflict occurs

[JimW]

If you are paying them to be there then I think you are free to go when you want. - Club meeting getting its income from drivers.

If they are paying you to be there (or if it is so desirable that it is by invitation and you accept that invitation) then you may have to reckon staying there to be are part of what you contract for - Big prestige event where the spectators are paying.

Just my twopennorth.

Regards

Jim

[zefarelly]

first post on this thread having got home from OPGC

we pay for the circuit in entry fees.

admission prices for MOnday on the door where £20 each, not cheap if you want a decent crowd to attend

food/snacks/drinks are worse than football grounds and even more expensive. we're all getting fleeced there

in short the racers are paying for their fun and to to entertain a paying audience, the only winner I can see is the circuit owner, thats like paying to play guitar down the pub rather than the landlord paying the band to fill it!

[Mark Griffiths]

LMC- worked well this year because there was a new system in place for the jeep shuttle which kept the French drunks away, and you could dump your scooter just by the main entrance to each paddock.

Goodwood- you get invited, so you have to play by their rules. On one occasion, having been carted up the side by a backmarker whom I was lapping, they subsequently let us depart early when I explained that we had to get the car back to the workshops in order to be ready for the Spa Six Hours meeting the following weekend. I wouldn't go back to Goodwood, but that's for reasons unconnected with the organisation/logistics.

Silverstone Classic- the organisation was a bit of a shambles at times, and the rent-a-goons occasionally over-zealous, but what they were trying to achieve was laudable. Get the bureaucracy sorted out and let us have an infield section of the circuit for motorhomes/trucks/trailers and they could easily achieve something similar to the LMC in terms of paddock layout. (It worked at Monza for the Coppa Intereuropa- the campsite was only five minutes walk from the main paddock).

So for the big showcase meetings, it's possible to achieve a high standard that's spectator friendly and easy for teams and drivers (and which provides a good source of signage/garage wall memorabilia). The Spa Six Hours is a bit different, in that the main race really is a serious endurance event, you do need quite a bit of kit on hand, and the old pit lane garages are badly laid out and poky, especially with two cars allocated. That makes it difficult to have any kind of paddock show for the few spectators who are there. Why Spa gets so few spectators is beyond me, as the meeting is superb.

There's no doubt that we have one or two historic racers who are a bit "up themselves" and who are no doubt as ignorant toward spectators as they are to fellow competitors, but they're very few and we historic blokes come out well in comparision to the modern lot.

[MAPearson]

Hi all.

Who is the customer and who is paying? A weekend's racing is not cheap with travel, hotels, food, mechanic's wages, race prep' etc.. - not to mention entry fees that pay for the circuit hire and other paraphenalia needed to hold a race meeting.

At the Silverstone Classic the Gentleman Drivers were invited to hang around in the paddock with their cars (actually, I think they wanted the cars rather than the drivers!) for an extra 24 hours after their race so that spectators could look round a full paddock of racing cars. While I agree that this would have been good for the spectators, it is the competitors who would have been the ones paying for it and it would have cost them money!

If organisers want this sort of flexibility from competitiors then they should be prepared to pay for it in some way. After all, their intention is to increase their own revenues by attracting more spectators. What about reduced/free entries if you show your car off all weekend? Money off next year's entry fee? Or maybe a spot in a "better" paddock, which is likely to attract more spectators, if you promise to stay the distance.

Whatever is done, organisers cannot expect competitors to pay for their racing AND the spectacle that is sold to increase the takings on the gate. It surely cannot be beyond their imagination to implement some kind of incentive scheme which will keep everyone happy and distribute cost/effort more appropriately.

Cheers,

Michael.

[simon drabble]

the only answer is do as Goodwood and then dictate the terms.... I have to say at something like Spa after the race all you really want to do is start the journey home (well the next morning in the case of the 6 Hour - but even then we have loaded up that night and been ready to go the next day