Le Mans Prototypes: which looks better, open or closed?

[mafrish]

I think that le mans cars should be a reflection of normal roadcars and most of them are closed. Lmp 1 and lmp2 cars are not for sale as a roadcar ,gt1 and 2 are . You can identify better with a aston martin or corvette than a r10 or pescarolo. It all went wrong with the matra simca 1972.But then the French had to win, so they did. The most beautiful le mans cars were closed, the ferrari p3/4 ,ford gt40,porsche 917,porsche 956/962,toyota gt1,porsche gt1,peugeot 905/908 and you must have alook now at the new dome closed prototype on their site.

[Hugewally]

Originally Posted by gucom

lol why do they need to expand brand awareness... let me see... road car cues = better marketing platform for commercial car makers = more manufacturer involvement = more spectator attraction = more money, more fame, more prestige...

The problem with that train of thought is what do the 'little' guys do? What road cars would Lola/Radical/Zytec/Creation/etc use as a styling basis? The styling idea, IMO is silly. Race cars should always be a function-oriented design.

That said, I like both styles equally. If I had to choose, I'd lean toward open topped as thats the way cars started.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by Hugewally

The problem with that train of thought is what do the 'little' guys do? What road cars would Lola/Radical/Zytec/Creation/etc use as a styling basis? The styling idea, IMO is silly. Race cars should always be a function-oriented design.

That said, I like both styles equally. If I had to choose, I'd lean toward open topped as thats the way cars started.

What the ACO are gunning for is that P1 is for big manufacturers and people who can afford to run customer versions of those cars. P2 is to be for Lola/Radical etc.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Hugewally

The problem with that train of thought is what do the 'little' guys do? What road cars would Lola/Radical/Zytec/Creation/etc use as a styling basis? The styling idea, IMO is silly. Race cars should always be a function-oriented design.

That said, I like both styles equally. If I had to choose, I'd lean toward open topped as thats the way cars started.

There are many misconceptions with this 'road car' coupe idea.

The cars will be designed as racecars first, styling cues added later.

The only difference, we expect, will be that the basic chassis regs will ban single seater noses etc, giving the cars a more basic shape, onto which it will be easier for manufactuer to add road car styling cues.

As for Lola etc, they can either link up with a manufactuer or continue with a generic coupe shape, cars won't be required to follow the cues of a road car.

[Subaru_WRX_STi]

why imposing a new GTP era ? Le Mans has always been a very good mixture between open top LMP and closed GTP ! teams and constructors should have the choice between the 2 !

[Rodger Davies]

I honestly have no preference. If I put together my favourite looking cars of the last decade it would include some of each. Personally, I wish the rules catered for both but that looks unlikely to happen any more for fear of being either inconsistent with image or rules.

[Purist]

This also only works if you get manufacturer commitment. You CANNOT count on anyone providing serious/true customer cars except Porsche and Ferrari. And Ferrari hasn't had a factory-run/developed prototype since the 312PB of 1973 and hasn't come out with a customer prototype since the 333SP of 1994.

I have to say that I am split on the coupe/spyder issue as well. The Audi R8 just got so monotonous, andj the 2002 Cadillac LMP-02 was too similar to it. However, the 2001 Cadillac was just a nice, smooth machine outwardly. The Panoz LMP-1 Roadster was a mean, agressive beast, and looked great. The Chrysler Mopar LMP was, I think, the closest any of the last number of generations of prototypes has come to being "beautiful." It had a nice curvy shape, but was smooth and sleek in form as well. The BMW V12 LMR was a good looker, and had a different appearance to it compared to the other spyders. Then again, the Bentley EXP Speed 8s looked great; I cannot say the same of the Peugeot 908. The old GT1s had great aesthetics as well, particularly the Porsches and McLarens. Obviously, the Group Cs were awesome internally and externally. The Nissans and Sauber Mercedes were smooth, and just cut through the air, and the field, with evil efficiency. The Peugeot 905 Evo 1s and Jaguar XJR-14s looked like they meant business with their front ends and massive rear wings.

I'll be honest, I think that prototypes stopped being what I would call truly beautiful back around 1970. At that time, the curves really started disappearing, and were replaced by the more clinical look of the Chevrons, Matra-Simca MS-670s, Alfa Romeo Tipo 33/3s, etc. I think somebody had those cars in mind when they came up with the WSCs and SRPIIs in the '90s. I'd say that the open prototypes of the '50s and '60s, aside from the Chaparral 2J, were the equal in aesthetics of virtually any of their enclosed counterparts.

Back to the specific topic, there were so few GTPs under the LMP/GTP rules that an accurate, balanced comparison is hard to come by. Were there any true LMP/GTPs aside from the Audi R8C and Bentley EXP Speed 8?

[Adam43]

That is a good summary Purist. The 50s 60s thing is interesting, there were good examples of both and not always because of rules. Some manufactures raced both! e.g The Maserati 450S.

[Teretonga]

Lola T92-10, Porsche 962, Ford GT40, Ferrari P4, Lola T70Mk3B,..Ferrari 250/275LM, Bentley 91-92, Toyota, Peugeot 07, Porsche 917, Ferrari 512M, 1968 Ford 3.0, Jaguar XR15 etc....
You just can't go past the fact that whatever the era closed cars look more graceful and somehow more complete than open cars.

Yes I love the Audi R8/R10's and the open Porsches etc but for Le Mans history I prefer the closed cars... whatever the era.

[Purist]

I'll still take a DBR-1 or 330TR over a lightweight E-Type; no offense to the Jaguar. Heck, I'll probably take the DBR-1 over just about anything of that era: even the Lister-Jaguar Costin GT. And Zagato really messed up Costin's Maserati 450S Coupe by doing it last minute. I think I also have to take exception to your statement Teretonga when it comes to the 1972-81 cars. Those massive snorkel intakes just don't work so well on coupes in the looks department.

I'm not quite sure I understand as "graceful" generally refers to movement. I'd say the completeness of a car is dependent on the car. The open Alpine-Renault A443 looks more finished than the closed Alpine-Renault A442B. The Alfa Romeo Tipo 33/2 looks very good in either coupe or spyder form. Aside from the Shelby Daytona Coupe, Aston Martin DP215, and Lister-Jaguar Costin GT, there aren't any really well-executed coupes done on the old roadster platform. And the Aston Martin DBR-1, Jaguar XKSS, and Ferrari 246SP look just as good as any of those coupes.

[Lusitano]

Originally Posted by Purist

This also only works if you get manufacturer commitment. You CANNOT count on anyone providing serious/true customer cars except Porsche and Ferrari. And Ferrari hasn't had a factory-run/developed prototype since the 312PB of 1973 and hasn't come out with a customer prototype since the 333SP of 1994.

I have to say that I am split on the coupe/spyder issue as well. The Audi R8 just got so monotonous, andj the 2002 Cadillac LMP-02 was too similar to it. However, the 2001 Cadillac was just a nice, smooth machine outwardly. The Panoz LMP-1 Roadster was a mean, agressive beast, and looked great. The Chrysler Mopar LMP was, I think, the closest any of the last number of generations of prototypes has come to being "beautiful." It had a nice curvy shape, but was smooth and sleek in form as well. The BMW V12 LMR was a good looker, and had a different appearance to it compared to the other spyders. Then again, the Bentley EXP Speed 8s looked great; I cannot say the same of the Peugeot 908. The old GT1s had great aesthetics as well, particularly the Porsches and McLarens. Obviously, the Group Cs were awesome internally and externally. The Nissans and Sauber Mercedes were smooth, and just cut through the air, and the field, with evil efficiency. The Peugeot 905 Evo 1s and Jaguar XJR-14s looked like they meant business with their front ends and massive rear wings.

I'll be honest, I think that prototypes stopped being what I would call truly beautiful back around 1970. At that time, the curves really started disappearing, and were replaced by the more clinical look of the Chevrons, Matra-Simca MS-670s, Alfa Romeo Tipo 33/3s, etc. I think somebody had those cars in mind when they came up with the WSCs and SRPIIs in the '90s. I'd say that the open prototypes of the '50s and '60s, aside from the Chaparral 2J, were the equal in aesthetics of virtually any of their enclosed counterparts.

Back to the specific topic, there were so few GTPs under the LMP/GTP rules that an accurate, balanced comparison is hard to come by. Were there any true LMP/GTPs aside from the Audi R8C and Bentley EXP Speed 8?

Beautifully put! They do not call you The Purist for nothing!

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

That is a good summary Purist. The 50s 60s thing is interesting, there were good examples of both and not always because of rules. Some manufactures raced both! e.g The Maserati 450S.

Ah the Maserati 450 variations and the Tipo 151 had some very beautiful variations and some not so good.

The 450 coupe was marvelous.
A fellow who lived sixty miles north of here used to own it, if he is still alive I am sure he kicks his own butt for selling it very cheaply. (As does the North Dakota gasoline station owner who sold a Daytona Coupe for $9,000 at the time a Corvette 427 L-72 sold for apprx. $6,000.)

Bob

[minimangler]

Modern cars, closed. Until we see an ugly one; the Peugeot is by far the sexiest racing car on the planet (looks wise anyway) at the moment.
Shame its got a crap sound; like a real beauty with a crap personality!

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by vandijk

No doubt.... (link)

That doesn't look right, especially with the current rules. Compare the cockpit width of the 908 tdi to that, and the difference is marked. And the general ethos is very fussy, not audi-like at all. Plus, yes it looks like a DP.

[gucom]

Originally Posted by minimangler

That doesn't look right, especially with the current rules. Compare the cockpit width of the 908 tdi to that, and the difference is marked. And the general ethos is very fussy, not audi-like at all. Plus, yes it looks like a DP.

i don't agree at all, firstly although the 908 looks better than the R10, and the "jet figher" look was cool for awhile, i really prefer coupes to look car-like... the 908's cockpit is just a loophole sort of thing.

Secondly, the concept audi, well about wether it's fussy or not i think not, for a racing car anyway. I don't think it looks all that much like a DP, the reason why DP's are so unbelievably ugly and boxy, is that they're only allowed to have a certain (short) length while still having to reach a certain height. The LMP rules, with longer cars allowed, look much better. A DP would never be seen as anything related to a roadcar, this concept audi could imo...

[Bentley03]

Just to say thank you to everyone who participated in this poll. I assume, since fresh votes have dried up, that everyone who wanted to vote has now done so........

So, I think it's fair to say that amongst Tenths members (who care enough to vote one way or the other), approximately three out of every four generally believe Le Mans Prototypes with a closed top look better.

I'd say that's quite a convincing margin, but it's nowhere near the rout in favour of closed prototypes that I suspected it might be. It's been an interesting exercise (for me, anyway!).

Thanks guys!

[NightStalk3r]

coupes for me too

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Just to say thank you to everyone who participated in this poll. I assume, since fresh votes have dried up, that everyone who wanted to vote has now done so........

So, I think it's fair to say that amongst Tenths members (who care enough to vote one way or the other), approximately three out of every four generally believe Le Mans Prototypes with a closed top look better.

I'd say that's quite a convincing margin, but it's nowhere near the rout in favour of closed prototypes that I suspected it might be. It's been an interesting exercise (for me, anyway!).

Thanks guys!

Yes, thanks for creating the poll. I am surprised it wasn't a stronger win, too.

[Koulle]

Generally, I prefer coupes.

[nasdriv87]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

coupes for me too

me too, specially when they run in rain races like lemans this year...

[GT-Eins]

Just voted for the closed; a shame that so less cars have been released so far.

[davehenrie]

I've seen pics of the mock-up of the Pug with a proposed new window width rule. This makes it dangerously close to a DP front. Gonna have to find some way to differentiate the Le Mans style car from the Grand Am or average fans will be greatly confused.

dave henrie

[cptkablamo]

I like both - probably the closed is more appealing but I think we need both - I would hate to see the open cars phased out...

[The Real DMN]

I have to agree, I also like both. I think the current Spyders are some of the nicest ever, with top marks going to the Radical. That said, I also love the closed top designs that are either out (Pug, Bently and even the old Panoz a few years back) also those only on the drawing board.

[dj choc ice]

got to be the open roof cars, i dont think the lines on the peugeot flow very well for a coupe car, the front for me just does not fit with the rest of the car, the barchetta open roof cars are just bloody sexy at the moment, the pescarolo for me looks so so pretty, the lola's look very very smooth and sleek as well and the zytek and radical are just automotive porn as is the porsche RS spyker and courage LC70 2006.