The Evolution of V8 Super Cars

[eduardo1]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

The big meteor has hit, the dinosaur's are on the way out. GT racing has and will take over (in Australia) as the main (saloon) car class. You are right in saying that vehicle ownership is more about people movement these days, but we (most of us anyway) have a passion to see the more exotic cars competing, and the local manufacturers will eventually see that too. They have had their heads in the sand, and haven't moved with the times, and consequently the Aus motoring manufacturing industry has all but died. I think that as soon as an enterprising, entrepreneurial type (maybe O'Brien, more likely Quinn) comes along and gets a Stephane Ratel, Blancpain GT3 PRO/am series up and running, Australian motorsport stands a chance.

If GTs do become the dominant 'sedan' category in Australia, then it will join Japan as the only country to do so.

Every other premiere domestic championship is populated by cars that are marketed to middle class.
BTCC, DTM, NASCAR etc.

Only Japan's Super GT has the exotics, but given it's dominated by its domestic manufacturers, they are probably more on par with a top of the line HSV by comparison.

And in Australia, despite the popularity at times of other categories - Formula 5000, GTs, even Sports Sedans, the Australian Touring Car Championship has always been the number one category.

So to supplant whatever the ATCC/V8SC evolves into as the number one category is going to have to undo over half a century of legacy and tradition.

[racer69]

I don't see anyone in the near future usurping the current layout of the land, in terms of which 'show' is followed on mass.

V8Supercars have the high ground, they've got over 50 years of championship tradition and the common joe's who aren't interested in motorsport hear 'V8Supercar' and associate that with the 'touring cars at Bathurst' they've heard on the news for many a year. The specifications of what is under the hood might change, perhaps away from a V8, but i highly doubt much would change in terms of some other category toppling them.

It would take a brave bunch of souls and alot of $$$ to try and take it on, and Ross Palmer already tried all that and it didn't pay off.

Originally Posted by FIRE

It's a touring car series so they should keep 4 door saloons.

Volvo S60
Ford Mondeo
Holden Malibu
Nissan Altima
...

Plenty of touring cars have been 2-doors; Sierra's, M3's, Skyline's etc..

Originally Posted by FIRE

If GTs do become the dominant 'sedan' category in Australia, then it will join Japan as the only country to do so.

Every other premiere domestic championship is populated by cars that are marketed to middle class.
BTCC, DTM, NASCAR etc.

Only Japan's Super GT has the exotics, but given it's dominated by its domestic manufacturers, they are probably more on par with a top of the line HSV by comparison.
...

Not that it's overly relevant to this thread, but given that SuperGT and DTM have agreed to a common rule, one of them will jump from their current structure (or perhaps allow both the 'middle class' and 'GT exotics')

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by racer69

I don't see anyone in the near future usurping the current layout of the land, in terms of which 'show' is followed on mass.

V8Supercars have the high ground, they've got over 50 years of championship tradition and the common joe's who aren't interested in motorsport hear 'V8Supercar' and associate that with the 'touring cars at Bathurst' they've heard on the news for many a year. The specifications of what is under the hood might change, perhaps away from a V8, but i highly doubt much would change in terms of some other category toppling them.

It would take a brave bunch of souls and alot of $$$ to try and take it on, and Ross Palmer already tried all that and it didn't pay off.



Plenty of touring cars have been 2-doors; Sierra's, M3's, Skyline's etc..

IMO Skyline, Camaro and Mustang are no touring cars.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by FIRE

IMO Skyline, Camaro and Mustang are no touring cars.

Yet all three (admittedly several generations ago) have won the Australian Touring Car Championship.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by FIRE

IMO Skyline, Camaro and Mustang are no touring cars.

What are they then?

[TWRv12]

Also there was talk at LM24 about Ford doing GT3 with the Mustang which would probably preclude being V8SC

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by TWRv12

Also there was talk at LM24 about Ford doing GT3 with the Mustang which would probably preclude being V8SC

Why?

[Woolley]

There's always the BTCC/WTCC style buzz boxes. Euugh.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by peckstar

What are they then?

GT's

But I admit in some cases (e.g. BMW M4) there's a thin line between touring cars and GT's.

If they allow GT's the series becomes just another GT series.
If they keep 4 door saloons it stays the best touring car series in the world.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by FIRE

GT's

But I admit in some cases (e.g. BMW M4) there's a thin line between touring cars and GT's.

If they allow GT's the series becomes just another GT series.
If they keep 4 door saloons it stays the best touring car series in the world.

Aren't GTs a sports cars series, which by definition has only two seats (as a general rule)

Where as Mustang and Camaro are a 4 seater.

They sit in a middle point of not being in either style

[eduardo1]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Aren't GTs a sports cars series, which by definition has only two seats (as a general rule)

Where as Mustang and Camaro are a 4 seater.

They sit in a middle point of not being in either style

It's kind of an irrelevant argument though as V8 Supercars do not identify themselves necessarily as Touring Cars. They are considered that only because they've evolved from the ATCC.

As far as what is a touring car, in the past regs have included a a minimum number of road-going cars built, which is how GT-RS, Sierras etc got in during the Group A days.

But if V8SA thought it was appropriate that two-door Mustangs or Camaros or whatever were included in the series and they could conform with the technical parity requirements, they'd let them in.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by eduardo1

As far as what is a touring car, in the past regs have included a a minimum number of road-going cars built, which is how GT-RS, Sierras etc got in during the Group A days.

But if V8SA thought it was appropriate that two-door Mustangs or Camaros or whatever were included in the series and they could conform with the technical parity requirements, they'd let them in.

I agree

Really i think the goal should be to get 3 of the big 4 manufacturers that are not involved to be involved. Almost whatever it takes

[TWRv12]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Why?

Trying to go upmarket. To it would make sense to do both with a similar car, different markets

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by TWRv12

Trying to go upmarket. To it would make sense to do both with a similar car, different markets

Mustang will start at just over $40K in Australia, dont think they are aiming up market

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Mustang will start at just over $40K in Australia, dont think they are aiming up market

And will have the aerodynamics of a housebrick. The Ford engineering crew complain about the package with the Falcon, the Mustang will be harder to paritise. Maybe everyone else will have to get worse to compensate.

Even though the Mustang isnt an inspired choice. The relationship between the racer and the volume road car (Mondeo as Falcon's replacement) should not be overlooked!

[velly4]

If the Reiter Camaro GT3 is anything to go by it would of been much cheaper than COTF.

They are about $250,000 euro, so somewhere around $350 to $400Kaus.

What is the price of the COTF? I've heard figures of $700 to $800k.

If all the main game teams and drivers jumped ship I would say a lot of the fans would too. If the racing is good, the people will come.

I have a lot of mates who are car nutters but have absolutely zero interest in V8 Supercars. A heap of them love WTA and travel interstate to watch cars doing 1 lap!
That isn't a crack at V8s either as I know it swings both ways.

Quite simply times have changed and the series needs to catch up.
I remember the outrage when the oil burners started running at Le Mans. Now they are running different types of hybribs and Sportscars have boomed off the back of that.

The hard part is attracting the younger generations without turning the dinosaurs away.

[GTRMagic]

The teams that bought one apparently paid a tickle over A$380k for a 888-built VF Commodore CotF, ready to run

If someone spent $800k building ONE car, they clearly didnt do their homework before building it, and evolved on the run, at great cost!

[eduardo1]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

The teams that bought one apparently paid a tickle over A$380k for a 888-built VF Commodore CotF, ready to run

If someone spent $800k building ONE car, they clearly didnt do their homework before building it, and evolved on the run, at great cost!

Most teams said the first builds cost them $500K all up, but that also included the cost of the man-hours to build.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by eduardo1

Most teams said the first builds cost them $500K all up, but that also included the cost of the man-hours to build.

Working out how parts fit together would be a time wasting exercise. Producing the bucks to make the fibreglass/carbon fibre/kevlar body kit components would be expensive too, but as more are made, learnings are integrated, and the process gets quicker to complete, the cost reduces.

Its like the invention of a new FDA approved drug. The first pill costs a kazillion dollars in development, the second one only a few cents in production costs.

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

And will have the aerodynamics of a housebrick. The Ford engineering crew complain about the package with the Falcon, the Mustang will be harder to paritise. Maybe everyone else will have to get worse to compensate.

Even though the Mustang isnt an inspired choice. The relationship between the racer and the volume road car (Mondeo as Falcon's replacement) should not be overlooked!

Tell me a touring car, that hasn't had the aero of a housebrick, since they started racing the category. These days, they could turn Heisenbergs Aztec into a touring car and make it competitive. If Bentley could turn the Continental into a race winning GT3, I reckon anything is possible.
The whole point about what is a touring car and what is a GT, has been discussed before. Holden and Ford in the past, have both had cars that have been described as GT sports cars, but lets not go there.