|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
14 Dec 2005, 12:34 (Ref:1483835) | #26 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,686
|
My question is, in a 80's saloon car running on road tyres am I ever likely to experience the G force in an accident that this device caters for?
|
||
|
14 Dec 2005, 12:43 (Ref:1483840) | #27 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,301
|
Quote:
I seem to remmember the poor chap who lost his life at Silverstone last year, in a Mini (new type) wasn't traveling very quickly when he hit the barrier near Becketts. It was reckoned if he'd of been wearing a Hans device he'd of still been around. |
|||
__________________
2002,2008 and 2010 SPA 6 hours winner |
14 Dec 2005, 12:46 (Ref:1483841) | #28 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 6,704
|
my point is that more people have been 'saved' by hans than were ever killed by BSF.
I think more independant research is needed, and the device should be redesigned for more gradual deceleration of the skull and perhaps lower cost materials - are they really the best for the job? Dtype 38 said it right it should be reccomended no mandatory. If any doctor was lecturing anyone about the use of hans then I'd ask the doctor to show me any research he had. |
||
__________________
Chase the horizon |
14 Dec 2005, 13:09 (Ref:1483854) | #29 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,860
|
I think SSC has hit the nail on the head. Motorsport News this week is thumping on about making HANS mandatory in all forms of motorsport because Prof Sid Watkins says so. Then in the article it talks about Sid smoking cigars - surely statistically a much more likely cause of death than a motor racing accident?
Think about it, my race car is actually slower than my road car, has fuel at lower pressure, only has 30 people around me all (mostly) going the same way and covers less miles. By the law of averages aren't I far more likely to have a fire/impact/injury incident in my road car on the M4 or a local country lane than on a race track? But I don't need overalls/helmet/HANS on the road. No, if MN wants to campaign for anything it should campaign to tighten ARDS course so that there's less accidents in the first place, or disqualify Touring Car drivers who IMHO encourage reckless/dangerous driving, or move spectator bankings away from corner apexes - all of which would reduce accidents and enhance safety and is better than treating the symptoms. As El Presidente (nearly) said: "Tough on accidents, tough on the causes of accidents" Max, playing devil's advocate again Put on tin hat and sits down below parapet |
||
__________________
Midgetman - known as Max Tyler to the world. MaxAttaq! |
14 Dec 2005, 13:24 (Ref:1483865) | #30 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,686
|
As SSC said, I would like to see the proper evidence before deciding which camp to pitch in.
However I will be getting a HANS compatible helmet at the autosports show, just in case, and if I need to replace my harness I'll be having a chat with my roll cage man about compatible mounts. Just leaves a perfectly good 300 quid seat to throw away! |
||
|
14 Dec 2005, 13:45 (Ref:1483898) | #31 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,699
|
Quote:
Dennis I bought a nice comfortable AVG lid from Ralley Design, fully FIA compliant and with Hans holes fitted for aroung £170 and I think its very good value. I tell you what guys its Christmas, lets save up all that polystyrene stuff that comes with the prezzies then when we get in the car get yer mate to stuff all that in with you and you will be as safe as houses, won't be able to see where you are going but so what if you hit something you wont get hurt And you made some very good points there midgetman. |
|||
__________________
You can't polish a turd but you sure can sprinkle it with glitter! |
14 Dec 2005, 14:06 (Ref:1483924) | #32 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,686
|
Bubble wrap. You can see through it and if you are bored you can pop it!
|
||
|
14 Dec 2005, 15:39 (Ref:1483984) | #33 | |||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,479
|
Quote:
On that very issue of hiring a race car, or at race schools, I was interested in the solution at Disney World Oval in Florida. I did a lesson there in their "Winston Cup" cars while on family holiday and they had helmet teathers fitted, but didn't use HANS devices. The teathers hook directly to the roll cage, and you get a pull loop that fits around your harness buckle which quick-releases the teathers from your helmet in an emergency (I assume the mechanism is as well tested and trouble free as a safety harness buckle). Seemed like a neat and cost effective solution to me. |
|||
|
14 Dec 2005, 15:44 (Ref:1483987) | #34 | |||
Racer
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 470
|
Quote:
(sorry) |
|||
__________________
The wonderful dexterity of Hannu Mikkola, makes me want to shake hands with the whole of Finland. (Architecture And Morality, Ted And Alice - Half Man Half Biscuit) |
14 Dec 2005, 15:51 (Ref:1483993) | #35 | ||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,479
|
Damn... knew I shouldn't have mentioned where it was
|
||
|
14 Dec 2005, 16:49 (Ref:1484040) | #36 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 4,380
|
I think the idea of tethering your head to the roll cage is pretty frightening actually - there are a lot more 'what if' questions involved, particularly if the seat moves in an accident...
|
||
__________________
This planet is mildly noted for its hoopy casinos. |
14 Dec 2005, 17:18 (Ref:1484061) | #37 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 6,704
|
erk...
|
||
__________________
Chase the horizon |
14 Dec 2005, 19:10 (Ref:1484143) | #38 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,686
|
I think the bigger issue is if your body moves but your head doesn't!
|
||
|
14 Dec 2005, 21:07 (Ref:1484231) | #39 | ||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,479
|
Beg to disagree. The "issue" is suddenly meeting another car, or the armco, head on at a closing speed of 50-80mph. You've got the deformable front end structure, you've got a proper seat bolted in properly, you've got a good harness mounted properly. So everything stays where its supposed to be.... except your head which now weighs umpity up hundreds of pounds and only your neck muscles to hold it in place. Say hello basal scull fracture! Personally I'm not too worried if my helmet teathers are attached to a HANS collar, the roll cage, or the diff... just so long as my lid doesn't try to go and say hello to my right front tie-rod.
I'd say that if your accident is so sever that its ripped your seat out and snapped your harness attachments, then where your helmet teathers were attached to is a bit academic..... Just my honest opinion, no supporting data, sorry. |
||
|
14 Dec 2005, 21:45 (Ref:1484249) | #40 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,623
|
There is no really need to buy new 3-2-3" belts, the old ones work okay. You can buy the new, but all the guys running in my team here in Germany still use the old belts. No problem. They complained the first few practices and races about the system, but not a sound afterwards.
One of the negative things about Hans is the problem of loosing side view, you can't turn your head that well any more. Seats can be a problem, but for sprints it is not going to be that bad if you are a bit uncomfy. For a saloon you'd need a 20 or 25° Hans. Single seaters 25° to 30°. Historic ss 40°. If you go to a good retailer, they'll have seats as well. Bring your helmet, put it and the Hans on and try it how it feels. I'll join Max now. |
||
__________________
The older I get, the better I used to be ! |
14 Dec 2005, 21:49 (Ref:1484253) | #41 | |||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 11,143
|
Quote:
|
|||
|
14 Dec 2005, 23:41 (Ref:1484335) | #42 | |||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,479
|
Quote:
My point here, really, is that there seems to be more than one way to protect against bsf, but in this country the MSA only seem to be persuing one option. Why is that? If there is a lack of comparative data on bsf with and without a HANS device, I bet there's even less to compare different ideas on methods of head restraint. |
|||
|
15 Dec 2005, 00:10 (Ref:1484348) | #43 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 417
|
I was just thinking about Ken's reply when this popped into my head.....
Could a pair of straps not be stiched into the harness shoulder straps? But then i thought ' what if the body moves in the harnesess' the neck would then be stretched, same as if they are attached to the cage or seat. I have always thought the HANS was a brillient step forward in driver protection, and after thinking about the suggestions from others and my own, the HANS wins hans(d) down... it can move with the driver, the belts can slide over it, and yet the head is still tethered to the shoulders. So the only alternitive i can think of is a 'rigid spine' thingie.... A thing that is worn under the drivers overalls and runs the length of the spine, it extends above the collar and the head tethers are attached to this, the ' rigid spine' is strapped around the body (torso and abdomen) thus imbolising the spine, in the event of an accident even if the seat fails the spine is held in position with the head. Removing the driver from a burning car without the risk of further spinal damage is one benifit on top of the head restraint. Of course these would have to be made of a thermo setting plastic and be able to cure into shape after emersing in hot water. Downsides...... (1)Driver changes could be fun if your spine cant move... (2)and comfort.(3) cost.. havnt a clue what this would be With 2 I only have limited movement in my spine, in fact most of the time i wear a belt with spring steel bars either side of my lower back and i crawl around cars all day. So getting in and out of the car may not be so bad. What do you reckon.... stop drinking now and turn the computer off or have i found an alternitive? |
||
|
15 Dec 2005, 00:40 (Ref:1484361) | #44 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,820
|
Jason we know one 'could' - but that wasn't what was asked. Denis said: am I ever likely to experience the G force in an accident that this device caters for?
'Likely', NOT 'could' BTW I can tolerate execrable spelling but it's 'have been' not 'of been' perr-lease ! |
||
__________________
a salary slave no more... |
15 Dec 2005, 08:19 (Ref:1484496) | #45 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,860
|
>>>>>One of the negative things about Hans is the problem of loosing side view, you can't turn your head that well any more.
.....thereby causing more accidents? >>>>>>>>made out of steel which surely would last indefinitely Tell that to my MG bodywork >>>>>>>>>> have always thought the HANS was a brillient step forward in driver protection, Couldn't agree more, it's just so damned expensive. Cost/risk analysis again. What am I more likely to hurt myself by? BSF or sclerosis (sp?) of the liver? Or be knocked off my push bike by some idiot talking on a mobile phone while he drives? Think the HANS is a terrific design, simple and effective, but designed to solve a problem that doesn't occur very often at our level. A bit like wearing a lifejacket on a cruise liner - the ship COULD sink at some time but how likely is it? Helmets I can relate to, they take a big whack in any accident. Overalls protect against more than just flame. But HANS? Seems like the FIA abdicating its responsibility for safe circuit design. Treating the symptoms, like I said. Take walls off race tracks, you don't stop so quickly, the head won't move forwards so violently. QED. |
||
__________________
Midgetman - known as Max Tyler to the world. MaxAttaq! |
15 Dec 2005, 08:37 (Ref:1484504) | #46 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,860
|
Whoops. Did of course mean "cirrhosis"(sp?) not "sclerosis"
|
||
__________________
Midgetman - known as Max Tyler to the world. MaxAttaq! |
15 Dec 2005, 09:08 (Ref:1484530) | #47 | ||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,479
|
Retro... I'm not convinced on the spinal plank thing. We already have a thing which keeps us the right shape, its called a seat. If attaching your head to the seat, as well as strapping the rest of you to it, wouldn't work then why would a spinal plank?
|
||
|
15 Dec 2005, 09:36 (Ref:1484547) | #48 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 417
|
Ken.. Neil Hasler had a correctly fitted seat in his Mighty Mini, with the correct belts etc and his seat broke when he speared the wall at Brands. Thats just one case of a seat deforming or breaking.. with the spine thing it wouldnt matter if the seat broke, your spine is still held rigid... and again, if the cars on Fire the Marshal can pull you out without him worrying that he is going to cause more damage to your spine.. in theory.
Thats the thing i'm worried about with the attachment of the head to the seat/cage as has been suggested, if the seat breaks your not attached anymore.. and if your t-boned and the seat moves inboard but the cage dosnt... your neck is stretched. It was only an idea... lots of sports use spinal protectors.. just wondering if it could be a alternative, I still say the Hans is the best at the moment but it has it limits of protection... and again costs |
||
|
15 Dec 2005, 09:39 (Ref:1484550) | #49 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 4,380
|
Quote:
I was going to suggest the alternative, which was tethers in the seat, but it seems Ken has beaten me to it I think that's a very good idea. Seats don't often break, and generally speaking you remain attached to them, even if you end up moving a little (due to belt stretch), or the seat moves (chassis deformation), you still end up in roughly the same place as your head, which is useful. It also means that drivers who 'share a ride', can also share the same tethers in the seat, assuming similar height, build, etc. All you'd need is the posts in the helmet. The spinal thing would worry me in terms of movement. I've analysed the way I drive, and have noticed that I tend to bend my back a bit when cornering (admittedly I have a crap seat). I just think that would be a little uncomfortable. However, doesn't the Hutchens device involve similar thinking? Straps around the torso, linked to helmet straps? It's been a while since I've seen one. |
|||
__________________
This planet is mildly noted for its hoopy casinos. |
15 Dec 2005, 09:48 (Ref:1484561) | #50 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,020
|
OK folks, thanks for all the comments and the PMs etc - its interesting that HANS still provokes lots of comment.
I am convinced that its a major contribution to safety and I am going to get one before next season. I think the price is exhorbitant but I have decided that it will be cheaper than broken neck and, given my lack of skill and propensity for going off, I think that its a good investment! Still, £600+ for a HANS and another £200 for a transponder means that, there's a couple of races that I might otherwise have entered that I can't afford to enter this year. |
||
__________________
Born in the Midlands, made in the Royal Navy |
Tags |
hans |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
HANS Device | Sean McInerney | Racing Technology | 124 | 4 Jun 2005 10:03 |
Who hates the HANS now? | paul-collins | Formula One | 3 | 7 Apr 2003 13:37 |
No HANS ,No Race, says Max | Armco Bender | Formula One | 25 | 1 Mar 2003 17:05 |
Look ma, no HANS | BootsOntheSide | NASCAR & Stock Car Racing | 9 | 2 Nov 2001 16:00 |
Hans | economy_waffle | Formula One | 10 | 15 Jun 2001 17:27 |