Spectator behaviour at Silverstone test & lack of crowd control

[downforce]

Dave Brand "Secondly, professional photographers. As part of the conditions of their media pass they will have extensive personal & public liability insurance & will have signed an indemnity form. Have you?"

Yes we all did including you, ever since you accepted the FREE ENTRY pass from the staff at the gate. Theres a gentle reminder that you might just pass out if a wheel strikes you. MOTORSPORT IS HAZARDOUS.

Wake up and stop acting so terribly pious! The comment was made in sarcasm pointing out the glaring truth that photographers [humans too] are left exposed and closer to death than we are for no specific reason. If great photographs are the excuse then we were after them too, risking our lives

mark_l"...kind of morons who thought it was a good idea to invade the track"

Chill mister...nobodys invading the track...'tis a matter of getting the criss cross extension metal out of the memorable snapshots for free. If anyone was invading the tracks it was the photographers themselves, assisted by the FIA or Silverstone authorities!

The only MORONS I noticed were the ones with invitee passes dangling around their necks strolling around in Copse corner wondering why the drivers were 'stalling' at the pit exit...not realising they were practising starts. Doh!

Oh yeah there could have been a couple more without cameras nor opportunities. Going home with bags of sour grapes?

[John Turner]

downforce, I think it is you that needs to 'chill out' here. Both piglet and Dave are simply expressing their opinions, and frankly, they have some merit. The point is that a balance between allowing spectators on this particular day, on the one hand freer access than normal and, on the other, recognition of the usual safety requirements needed to be achieved. It would seem that a lack of organisation and/or sufficient number of marshals prevented this. The risk is surely that the event will not be repeated, however gung ho you feel about it, if the governing bodies (and insurers) consider that public safety was compromised.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by downforce

Yes we all did including you, ever since you accepted the FREE ENTRY pass from the staff at the gate. Theres a gentle reminder that you might just pass out if a wheel strikes you. MOTORSPORT IS HAZARDOUS.

Silverstone's insurance will be based on having areas where the public can't go. It is possible these are invalidated for people who cross the line. It is also possible that their premiums will go up or insurance removed if people keep breaking these rules. That little piece of paper doesn't cover everything.

At the end of the day unless you force people not to do something then they won't be able to stop themselves taking the Michael. Which is a shame.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by downforce

Yes we all did including you, ever since you accepted the FREE ENTRY pass from the staff at the gate. Theres a gentle reminder that you might just pass out if a wheel strikes you. MOTORSPORT IS HAZARDOUS.

Let's get one thing straight - I didn't accept a free entry pass, as I wasn't there (so I'm probably not arguing from a position of strength! ) .

You appear to be of the opinion that being hit by a wheel is an acceptable risk; try explaining that to the widow......

Wake up and stop acting so terribly pious!

Lets' keep to the subject, not the person, please. I'm fully aware of the dangers of motor sport, particularly after last Friday's tragedy.

[mark_l]

Press Photographers have to prove they have Public Liability Insurance when they sign on.
Marshals are insured against public liability by the MSA/Organsing Club when they sign on.

Maybe it is time for spectators to show proof of public liability insurance before they are allowed in the circuit.

[downforce]

Im chilled guys. [have great shots of fence-free grand prix machines!]

Just wondering how you guys seem unconcerned or are turning a blind eye to the safety standards that are enforced on men with long lenses sitting RIGHT there in the face of death! I wonder if you noticed the 'dangling' photographer at Farm. He had Villenueve's visor between his nose and Jacques' at a good 255Kmh entry speed! [makes for a great shot no doubt]

...hmmm but then again you have mentioned earlier that hes signed the whatchumaycallit insurance 'something' that legalizes or justifies his death?

[mark_l]

Media Photographers have a job to do, as long as they don't get in the marshals way then they are left to their own devices.

All the media photographers I know are sensible, they know when not to cross the track, where not to stand and generally what colours not to wear.

Marshals and Media know the risks and accept the risk when they sign on and when they are at trackside.

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by John Turner

downforce, I think it is you that needs to 'chill out' here. Both piglet and Dave are simply expressing their opinions, and frankly, they have some merit.

So accusing Downforce of being a "track invading Moron" is expressing a valid opinion is it?

In my view, all Piglet and Dave etc have expressed so far is contempt for people just following human nature, the inherent "herding" instinct to follow where others go. The basic point remains that until 2:00pm a certain amount of Stewards/Security personel at Silverstone didn't do their job correct. It's as simple as that!

In addition they seem intent on painting a Doomsday scenario for future Silverstone test's, which is based on No official comments from the circuit or the FIA whatsoever! Please find me an article or Press release anywhere that back's up these accusations that future Free test day's will now be in doubt...

[Sodemo]

I acknowledge that I could be injured or killed attending a race meeting, thats the luck of the draw, you could get killed walking down the street by car / falling masonary / random shooting, such is life.

What about back in the 50's and 60's when nothing seperated the spectators except maybe waist height wooden fence?

[garcon]

Those advising caution are doing so with experience of what it's like on the dangerous side of the safety fences, and with a degree of common sense that unfortunately doesn't extend to all those who visit circuits as punters.

Monster, you should check the stats about the 50s and 60s. Quite a number of spectators were killed before some of the unnecessary risks in motor racing were dealt with...

Any more mud-slinging (in either direction) will lead to thread closure and warnings.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

In my view, all Piglet and Dave etc have expressed so far is contempt for people just following human nature, the inherent "herding" instinct to follow where others go.

Please don't put words into my mouth. Nothing in my posts was intended to express contempt for anyone; if that's the way you read it, fair enough. What I have expressed is concern over the apparent inability of some posters to fully appreciate the risks involved & to protect themselves from those risks.

The basic point remains that until 2:00pm a certain amount of Stewards/Security personel at Silverstone didn't do their job correct. It's as simple as that!

Some posts in this thread have given the impression that spectators acted irresponsibly; do we really need circuit staff to impose what should be a matter of common sense?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

In my view, all Piglet and Dave etc have expressed so far is contempt for people just following human nature, the inherent "herding" instinct to follow where others go.

Aren't humans great! This makes them sound like lemmings and a bunch of being that have no thoughts for themselves! Perhaps they are.

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

In addition they seem intent on painting a Doomsday scenario for future Silverstone test's,

You have read too much into those posts. They are mearly highlighting why some of these situations exist.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by downforce

Just wondering how you guys seem unconcerned or are turning a blind eye to the safety standards that are enforced on men with long lenses sitting RIGHT there in the face of death! I wonder if you noticed the 'dangling' photographer at Farm. He had Villenueve's visor between his nose and Jacques' at a good 255Kmh entry speed! [makes for a great shot no doubt]

Which is completely irrelevant, since the thread is about spectators, not photographers who, several have pointed out, are doing their jobs and for which they are paid!

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

So accusing Downforce of being a "track invading Moron" is expressing a valid opinion is it? ................ The basic point remains that until 2:00pm a certain amount of Stewards/Security personel at Silverstone didn't do their job correct. It's as simple as that!

How very selective of you, when it must be clear from my post what aspect of the posts I was addressing. The point is that they were merely drawing attention to a possibility not a certainty. Furthermore, my post made no reference to the spectators behaviour and was rather directed to the organisation, so thank you for agreeing with me

[bigjon]

it is sad that people posting on a motor racing forum believe misbehiour and ignoring barriers is acceptable - imagine if 60,000+ people decide that in June.

That would be the end of the British GP!!!!

[chezza]

Well said Jon

I think that this is disgraceful behavior and also displays some of todays society issues. I have always been bought up to think that a barrier is there for a reason...usually to keep me from damaging me or something else. Many people these days have no respect for what these barriers mean and don't have the common sense to think of their own safety.

Many people at the tests will have been to motorsport events before and will know where they should and shouldn't stand. These people set a bad example, as has already been displayed in this thread to those who are new to the sport.

The whole point of marshals and photographers signing on is so they are covered by the insurance of the circuit/organising club and many photographers also have their own insurance cover. They are covered under any situation. You are not.

I emplore people to use their brains and common sense so that people can continue to enjoy these days.

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Some posts in this thread have given the impression that spectators acted irresponsibly; do we really need circuit staff to impose what should be a matter of common sense?

Do you really think that a Sport that involves taking huge risks attracts mostly Non-risk taking fans? People will be people, Boy will be Boys etc. If everyone in the country followed the rules then we wouldn't need a Police force would we? What we missed until too late in the day was strong stewarding from the circuit management, pure and simple.

And I'm not talking about hiring more stewards, just for them to be more organised and to stop watching the action for 5 minutes and do their job!

[JohnEboy]

Originally Posted by chezza

Well said Jon

I think that this is disgraceful behavior and also displays some of todays society issues. I have always been bought up to think that a barrier is there for a reason...usually to keep me from damaging me or something else. Many people these days have no respect for what these barriers mean and don't have the common sense to think of their own safety.

.

I'm sorry you feel that way , but I think that amoungst other comments are a bit harsh and unjust , I realise I'm a newb here and dont wish to get of on the wrong foot but we are not talking about louts fighting after a football game here .
I was there taking pictures at the fence , there was no indication that this was not allowed , by means of steward nor was there prohibitive signage , at no time did I feel it was unsafe to do this and I felt the protection on offer by means of the catch fence and the protective walling in front of said fence was an awful lot more than on offer at places on other circuits in the UK , also in defence of the few hundred other people in a similar position to me , most seemed very sensible and responsible adults who conducted themselves very well and enjoyed a good day out .

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by garcon

Monster, you should check the stats about the 50s and 60s. Quite a number of spectators were killed before some of the unnecessary risks in motor racing were dealt with...

I know, which is something that obviously can't be ignored.
What are people upset about, the fact that people were standing / leaning over fences, or that people went into zones where they shouldn't have been?

However if people want to take the risk, then so be it.
I personally didn't see much in the way of fence abuse, I did see one guy on the entry to Bridge leaning over the brown wooden fence there to take a snap, the irony is, that if that fence wasn't so high, he wouldn't have had to climb on it.

I look back to F1 footage from 1993 and 1994 and at tracks like Imola and Monza, fans are actually sitting on concrete walls lining the track with their feet essentially dangling over the run off area and grass.

I'm the person who groans the loudest when a higher, thicker spectator barrier is put in place, like the one at Club corner which appeared after 2002. I know as a spectator that I am taking a chance spectating at these events, and I accept it, I could very well end up with a wheel where my head should be, but thats life, I can accept such things, just the same way I can accept that I may be crippled / killed in a kart accident.

People die from rock climbing, and skiing yet these activities aren't banned.

What about Mallory Park, that has virtually no spectator fencing at all.

[SALEEN S7R]

Exactly, if people want to take risks then let them I say! I wasnt actually at the test but going from my past experinces of Silverstone and motorsport venues in general I would say that motorsport fans are generally pretty level headed and sensible people. They know when they are putting themselves at serious risk, most avoid that. It sounds to me that things have been blown slightly out of proportion, perhaps I am wrong, I dont know as I wasnt there but going by what has been said in this thread from various people that would be my opinion.

[Paddockman]

[QUOTE=The Monster]I acknowledge that I could be injured or killed attending a race meeting, thats the luck of the draw, you could get killed walking down the street by car / falling masonary / random shooting, such is life.




Here Here!!!

SAFTEY SAFTEY SAFTEY!!!! ITS ALL WE HEAR!

Over the Top Safety will eventually lead to the death of motorsport from the spectators point of view, No spectators= No sponsor, No profitable circuits = "The End"

The modern day tracks are killing TV coverage as even the Camera positions are getting far too far away!!!

[TimD]

Originally Posted by The Monster

What about Mallory Park, that has virtually no spectator fencing at all.

Doesn't have a lot of Formula 1 there either for that matter! Having said that, seeing the Aurora AFX F1s going into the first corner three abreast in 1979 was one of the crystallising moments of my motorsport enthusiasm.

To the topic in hand, I did regard it as a shame that people insisted on beating the stewards this week at the test. There was one particularly harrassed young official who was tasked with clearing the grass patch near the flag gantry and bridge on the start-finish straight. Without fail, whenever she attempted to clear the area she received abuse and only grudging acquiescence. Five minutes later, the grass was covered with people again.

I didn't see any officials spectating. All seemed to be fully occupied with trying to stop people from being where they shouldn't be. The biggest problem this week in my mind has to be that there just weren't enough people on duty to effectively police the event. I was certainly wrong-footed by the sheer number of people attending this week and I wonder if the circuit itself underestimated the draw.

My companion at the test made the observation that a couple of years ago people were ejected forcefully from the circuit by circuit staff for sneaking under the metal bars at Woodcote. It's not so many years before that that a test session was stopped when Pedro Lamy's Lotus wound up down an access tunnel. Accidents, big accidents can and do happen and I would hate to have to read that Silverstone's licence was in jeopardy because someone was involved in an accident through standing where they had been told not to.

[mrsweety]

Safe safe safe...... that's all you ever hear in this sad country!!!! everthing is wrapped in cotton wool!!!! THAT'S WHY F1 IS SO BLOODY BORING TODAY!!!!

I was there!! maybe the odd person on the grass! and they had stick from the staff at Silverstone!! you ever been to a footy match????

Come on chaps!! people get killed mowing the lawn!! people like a little danger but I'm sure nobody wants to be killed!! people won't be happy till everything is banned and there's nothing to do but sit in and watch the telly....


End of..

P.S. Monster! what karts do you race?

[Inigo Montoya]

Sweety, stop shouting (hmmm, reminds me of talking to my girlfriend).

Everyone step back for a sec and cool down

Personally, I don't find F1 boring, and I think most others who post around here don't either. Been to footy matches (yes, the european kind), and last time I checked there weren't cars flying along the pitch at 200 mph.

[Knowlesy]

If someone had specifically said to me I had to move away from the fences, I would have done, just to clear that up.

However, I was there 8 hours and wasn't once told to move away from the fence.

I wasn't clambering on it, I had just moved up to it and was peering through it. At Luffield, a very slow corner. The risk, to me, was acceptable. There are areas of the track where such actions would be unnacceptable to me.

Look at the exit of Abbey......you can stand extremely close to the track there without a problem, with cars doing far higher speed. And yet this is deemed perfectly OK.

I understand why people get upset over it, but to be honest I feel that the folk standing on stepladders in a bid to take pictures, because they can't see over the huge fences, are in far more danger of injury than I was that day. I wasn't invading the track, I was just peering through a fence from a foot away.

But as I say, I wasn't there to cause trouble. If someone had asked me to move I would have. This didn't happen.

[MikeHoyer]

It seems that some people's attitude is that it is their right to turn up at the circuit, and do whatever they want. Obviously not looking at the bigger picture, if something happens as a result of their actions, then it could make free test days like this a thing of the past...