Hans Device? Worth it for drive and arrive, Formula vee?

[tristancliffe]

You'd have to take that up with the manufacturers. I'm sure they could be cheapened, and I'm sure they will come down in price, partly as numbers increase and partly as they become mandatory.

But the forces involved are the same regardless of whether it's a club crash or a professional crash, so I don't think the lower spec version would be the way to go. But then again, if the carbon fibre is so strong as to not be in question maybe GRP or some sort of reinforced plastic would work.

I do hope they come down in cost at some point, carbon or otherwise. But I'll keep wearing them regardless of cost (assuming they don't double in cost).

[dasc04]

Originally Posted by Alan Cherry

Hans seems like a good idea to me, but why are they so dear ? OK I know how much is my head worth etc etc, but I suspect good idea - someones on to a nice little earner, so no decent prices - why do they have to be carbon ? what about a clubmans version - a bit heavier in some sort of plastic/nylon descendent, but about half the price- I'm sure they'd go like hot cakes, and if the manufacturers were really interested in safety, and wanted everybody to wear one , it would be the way to go!

They are made in carbonfibre because of the properties CF has. Not just because of its weight but because of its strength it has and where strength can be directed by the use of the weave. The HANS is not just made out of CF for the sake of being fancy.

There is a substantial amount of CF in a HANS and CF is not a cheap material and the process of manufacturing something from it is not a particularly quick and easy one.

I would expect a major amount of price of the HANS is in the material and the manufacturing as apposed to a large profit.

[tristancliffe]

On that note, I've heard the profit margins are TINY on the HANS. Tiny as in you could count it on your fingers!

[ngdragon]

totally unscientific..but I saw a 944 go in hard at Tower (Castle Combe) in august.
Was expecting the driver to be stretchered out- but he just got out-wearing a HANS- took his helmet off and started helping with the clean up.
I was very impressed

[JohnD]

The points on cost of CF understood.
But will wider use bring the cost down - bulk manufacture etc?

I know, I know, it's my neck and what's that worth, but £500?
That's two whole sets of tyres for me.

John

[tristancliffe]

The price is what it is for the time being.

If you don't want to, or can afford to spend £500 on a HANS device then fair enough. I can't afford to buy a carbon fibre helmet or really good race suits. I don't think anyone can be criticised for not wanting to spend the money.

What I don't like to see is people dismissing it out of hand, or saying that it's pointless because accidents are 'rare'.

It would buy me two sets of tyres too (well, one and a bit), but if those new tyres blew at 130mph I'd quite like my head to stay on me neck. I was fortunate that at the time I could afford a HANS device (and I was buying a helmet anyway, so HANS posts were relatively inexpensive).

Everyone's budget is different, and everyone's perception of danger is different. Some want to win more than anything, and will spend the money making the car faster. Some are happy to tootle around near the back, but want to do so safely, and therefore spend more or suits/helmets/HANS. Others have a budget allowing them to be fast AND extra safe... So take a look at HANS. There is a lot of evidence saying how good they are, are no evidence I've found about how bad they are (though some people find them a bit uncomfy, but this is racing not sitting in armchairs). If you can stretch to it, and you think it's for you, then get one. If you can't then don't. Simple.

[JimW]

The material is very expensive - just Google carbon fibre and you will see. Skilled fabrication ditto. (E.g. a cf cog wheel for a pedal bike is £40 a pair - total weight about 8grams and much simpler shape!)

Regards

Jim

[dasc04]

The price of CF is always on the increase so we are quite lucky to have not seen an increase in the price of HANS yet.

[andy97]

I looked at buying one in the USA about 18 months ago when I was working over there for a few weeks and surprisingly the saving would only have been about £40-50. It seems that the price is what it is. CF is expensive, there's a lot of research to be paid for, small production runs won't give economies of scale and I bet that the liability insurance premiums are vast!

[Flavio Galtieri]

Interesting thread.

All I can say is when I first raced FF1600 it was with cotton overalls, open faced helmet with sunglasses underneath goggles and no seat belts or fire extinguisher in the car.

An American acquaintance died in 1970 in a race at Mallory Park at Gerrards having been thrown out and over the bank in a Jim Russell RDC race breaking his neck. Can you imagine that being acceptable today? A death in what was basically a school graduates race?

In the early eighties I was driving at Snetterton when a young racer was beached at Russell, very fast in those days, and was collected head on by a following car. Paraplegic since.

When my son said he wanted to go racing Formula Vee three years ago we bought all the safety gear plus a Hans device. He has never sat in a racing car without one so whether it's comfortable, restricts vision etc. is not an issue.

I cannot understand why this is even up for debate. They should be made compulsory by the governing body.

[tristancliffe]

Originally Posted by dasc04

The price of CF is always on the increase so we are quite lucky to have not seen an increase in the price of HANS yet.

Except that over the years it's got, and is getting, cheaper.

[steveng]

Thank you for your input Flavio. Very sobering.
Tristan, although those of us that "tootle around at the back" are usually going as fast as our talent/budgets/bravery/machinery allows. We would be happier to be winning believe me! I still crash from time to time. I have a great time at the back but I would love to do better.

[ss_collins]

Flav we must disagree on that one. Racing without belts not for me thanks - though recently I drove a vee with no helmet or belts - won't be doing that again. Darned dangerous and was a bit silly to be honest.

Moving onto should the Hans really be that pricey - its one of the things I will take up with the manufacturers fairly soon when I go to see them. How much goes to the patent holder, how much is the margin and how much does it really cost?

but is it really the only solution, or is it the only one to have the backers able to pay £10,000 to the FIA institute to look at it?

Actually there are a lot more lower cost things that could improve club single seater safety that I think should be brought in - such as mandatory frontal impact structures - Cranfield have done a fair bit on this and I have the findings. They would cost around £200 each (unless you have a wierd shaped nose) and have very very real safety benefits - far more pressing than those addressed by Hans.

but thats another topic...

[Alan Cherry]

Originally Posted by JimW

The material is very expensive - just Google carbon fibre and you will see. Skilled fabrication ditto. (E.g. a cf cog wheel for a pedal bike is £40 a pair - total weight about 8grams and much simpler shape!)

Regards

Jim

Fair enough, but i'd prefer steel cogs rather than no cogs at all. Is there truly no alternative to carbon ? - I honestly have no idea of the answer to this, but I'd have thought that todays plastics could be made to behave in a similar fashion - although probably at a much greater weight . Kevlar is a great grandson of nylon - I'm sure manufacturers (ICI/Dupont etc) can 'dial in' specified properties of Hans manufacturs into cheaper/heavier materials - just thought it would be better to have one at greater weight and less cost, and be used by a much greater proportion of us !

Alan

Any interested scientists out there ?

[Podd37]

I find this whole subject fascinating. Firstly I admit to not wearing a Hans device. Why not? Purely as I am not completely sold on the benefits ( have any drivers been killed or injured while wearing one? I don't know myself) nor am I convinced by the people selling them. I do wear a good (Bell) helmet, latest spec overalls, securely mounted 3 inch belts and my car has a proper cage. I wouldn't run without any of the above as that would be plain daft! And I did consider a Hans device. However I then discovered that there were up to various angles of device for various types of cars. So if I am recommended a 30degree device (I race a saloon) but due to the angle of my seat, the mounting of my belts or any other thing to do with the seat/belts/driver combination that device means my device is sitting wrongly what happens in an accident? Who checks that everything is in co-ordination with everything else? Or as sometimes happens I decide to drive a friends single seater? Are the angles dangerously wrong? In other words, is a badly fitted/wrongly angled Hans device more dangerous than not wearing one at all? Would I end up with more damage than if I hadn't worn it? As I couldn't find satisfactory answers to these questions from suppliers and as it meant (apparently) different belts and seat I decided to go with what I know works very well. I appreciate that there are many accidents that we can all site as 'if only he had worn one' but it is also possible that there are just as many 'if only it was fitted properly' and until I have a proper answer to that I will do without.

[Al Weyman]

In the early eighties I was driving at Snetterton when a young racer was beached at Russell, very fast in those days, and was collected head on by a following car. Paraplegic since.

Is that the incident that the injured driver successfully sued the BARC despite signing the usual disclaimer on the entry form and has since cost all of us thousands in extra insurance per race?

[AU N EGL]

I ware a HANS. Lots of other guys I know ware the R3 unit.

Over here we are required to ware one or the other.

[Alan Cherry]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

I ware a HANS. Lots of other guys I know ware the R3 unit.

Over here we are required to ware one or the other.

Excuse my ignorance, what's an R3 Unit please ?


Alan

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Is that the incident that the injured driver successfully sued the BARC despite signing the usual disclaimer on the entry form and has since cost all of us thousands in extra insurance per race?

Not sure if it was exactly the one.

The one Al is referring to was indeed at Snet/Russell. A car had gone off and, with driver out, had been parked against the wall. Another car, in spite of having passed the incident scene under yellows on a number of occasions, went off, hit the parked car and the driver was seriously injured.

This was the incident which led to the introduction of the "Hazard board" which is displayed before such a situation.

Originally Posted by Appendix J.16.1.(o)

Hazard Area Board: A warning of a hazard that was not present when the
practice/race commenced.

The courts were absolutely clear that the sign-on waiver was no protection to the organisers against what the court saw as their 'negligence'. The award was reduced by 50% because of some fault being attributable to the driver. (Note: Memory may fail me as to details as I don't have a written report to hand (now where did I put that?) and the words used have their normal meaning, not necessarily their strict legal one. There now, that might keep any watching lawyers happy. )

Regards

Jim[/LEFT]

[steveng]

The business of legal action against a race organiser is potentially very vexing. A few years ago a boxer (I cannot remember whom) was seriously head-injured during a bout. He sued because the medical facilities were not good enough, some problem about access to CT scans I think...
The British Boxing Board of Control were found culpable and a large sum was awarded to the boxer. All this seems very reasonable but the BBBof C didn't actually have any assets to pay the fine. There is huge amounts of monety in boxing as there is in motor racing but not at grass roots level. The Board of Control was just an organising club. Perhaps BRSCC or BARC would be in a similar position. As competitors we do have the right to expect appropriate medical cover at circuits ( I am a doctor and I know some of the medics and they are reassuringly good) but we partake in a dangerous sport at our own risk. I am sorry to hear that anyone of us would/has considered legal action against the sport.

[andy97]

The Boxer was Michael Watson, IIRC, & it was a British or maybe even World Championship event against Chris Eubank.

[JimW]

Watson v British Boxing Board of Control – The Times Law Reports, 12 October 1999

And this led to the BMA issuing a document of guidance "Doctors' assistance to sports clubs and sporting events". Available at http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/content/sportingevents

The MSA insurance which covers organisers/competitors/officials from liabilities is intended both to protect from loss/bankruptcy and to ensure that injured parties can be compensated.

There are many more cases going around than is generally recognised.

Jim

[fazzaz]

There is a second issue in waivers or releases. An individual, say a driver, can waive his rights, or release the organizers from liability with a properly written document. The issue is that the driver cannot waive his family's/heirs' rights (to support, companionship, etc.) in the same way.

This was the basis of the successful suit by Mark Donohue's widow against Goodyear, Bell Helmets, Penske, and others. I believe the amount awarded was $20M. (I can only guess what attorneys in the U.S. today would demand and get for such a case.)

[JimW]

Originally Posted by fazzaz

There is a second issue in waivers or releases. An individual, say a driver, can waive his rights, or release the organizers from liability with a properly written document.

Not true in the UK as far as 'negligence' goes, I understand.

Regards

Jim

[midgetman]

Yes, it's a general principle of English law that you cannot indemnify against death or personal injury. Always has been, it's just that our innate sense of fair play kept the courts out of the sporting arena. Therefore the "disclaimer" has never, ever been worth the paper it's written on.