Not so best of British

[chezza]

That would be £50 for a 2nd entry...you'd still have to pay full wack for the first entry as you have to pay the insurance etc. and that doesn't help your friends particularly.

[Al Weyman]

Absolutely Chezza thats what I had in mind. All the paperwork and insurances would be in place from the primary entry.

[Stacy]

"That's one of the reasons i go back to combe every year Al at least we know we'll get at least three races with a full grid even if the visiting championships can't always match it"

Quite. (Although I'd point out that Racing Saloons was the largest grid of the day including the Combe series' at Easter).

Fairly obviously the cost of track time is fixed, and in fact it's been steadily increasing. When you factor that cost against the grids it stands to reason they need to increase in line to maintain the status quo, let alone reduce them.

Entries always used to be the smallest cheque you would write as a racer, but as time has moved on it seems that's no longer the case. They'd certainly made themselves well known last year anyway.

You can't escape them though, the circuit hire has to be paid for, and as an example TTRS entry fee for a 10 lapper at Combe was £105, and for an hours track time at Brands Hatch (20min qually and 2 x 20min races) the entry was still £225.

Far lower than I've seen on a like for like, but the fact is it will never be free or close to it. All we can do in the meantime is make sure we target full grids, be ruthless with those that don't/can't achieve it, and sadly probably not expect to be racing at all in 25yrs time if the circuits get better offers for the time/or get shut down through noise protests..

Stacy

[DriversKnow]

Hi

It's James from Dunlop.

I agree, Croft was disappointing from an entry point of view. Our job is to promote this package, with the BARC running and administering it.

I have been reassured by the championships that grid numbers will be up at Castle Combe. Some of our series have the majority of the drivers based in the south, and for those not chasing championship wins, Croft was unfortunately the one that they chose to drop. (Although I think they missed one of the best tracks in the country!)

Regarding Sport Maxx, it is the first championship year for the Cup after a successful few pilot races last year where over 20 cars raced. I'm told that the Combe grid will be more representative than Croft.

Drivers in the core Great and British Championships at Combe (Mini, Radical and Sport Maxx) will benefit from excellent TV coverage through Sky Sports and Motors TV so I'm hoping that, and the fact that Combe is one of the driver's favourite tracks, will entice them out.

[juliann]

IMHO the solution isn't 'giveaway' prices for 2nd entries on the day, the natural course of events if that were the case is that no-one would enter a 2nd race until the day, thus diminishing normal entry grid sizes and pushing up entry costs as organisers have to hedge against low/unknown grids. The solution, as stated elsewhere is to have enough enthused racers in order to fill grids early and reduce entry costs for all

[Al Weyman]

No it would'nt why should it? If the 2nd race fee was low people would enter straight away to ensure they got in. And double headers with one qually what are they all about, must be the worst value of all! James the facts are to many people as has been stated here the Radicals as a spectator sport are simply not that exciting or interesting so why waste a valuable TV slot as they are not going to improve at all on the small screen, why not televise the DMN races instead and give the punters some interesting viewing for a change!!

[Stacy]

Blimey Al, interesting maths given the example, would love to see your accounts...

Fact is, the CTCRC had 2nd race entry fees at £50 for some time - unofficially. I even took advantage of them myself. The PBMW's had them more officially I understand.

Obviously when numbers became too great BARC pinged them up to £100 or whatever it was to increase overall revenue (on the sums above, too many at £50 would not pay for the track time would it..).

The bottom line is - did it improve grids by any significant margin? Probably not.. So long as entry fees are not regarded as taking the p*ss, then bigger variables are at play I believe.

Stacy

[juliann]

My point was referring to spare grid slots that weren't taken beforehand as referred to by phansa88.

[Al Weyman]

No complex maths involved in my book, its simple 50 quid or nothing and if there is 20 spare places on the grid and with this system you fill just 10 thats a bonus of £500. And as for unofficially thats a fat lot of use for anyone new to the championships as I never got to hear about them!

[Stacy]

20 spare places = more problems than £50 or £100 entry fees..

BARC, MSV etc may be circuit owners but they do still have to justify the circuit rental against other potential income streams. Circuit hire alone divided by 30 drivers is still significant, by 15 it starts to become a real issue.

These circuit owners are clearly pro motorsport, otherwise every day would be a corporate day, but events have to be run on a sound commercial footing to make sure they can continue doing so for the years to come.

Stacy
p.s Don't feel bad, I only heard when it was too late to be any good too.

[Al Weyman]

I realise that and ideally the race entries would be allocated by a scheme whereby if its your primary full pay event you have priority of entry so hopefully the hire fee would be covered any spare places could be allocated after cut off date. The discounted rate would only go to those who had committed to a pay the full price for their primary race for another race on the day. The whole point is you must have committed to pay full price for a race on the card before you get a 2nd race discount. Whether we like it or not things are getting tougher and there are plenty of championships fielding low grids.

As a reply to the race fee only being a small part of the overall picture. To a certain extent I agree but a race entry fee unlike any money you spend on your car is like rent, its dead money. When you spend on your car at least you have bought something tangable that hopefully will enhance the value of the vehicle or make you go better so somehow its not so painful.

[juliann]

[QUOTE=Al Weyman] And double headers with one qually what are they all about, must be the worst value of all! QUOTE]

It depends how much you pay doesn't it and whether you prefer to spend your money on racing or practicing. To take the examples on this thread :

Oulton Park 15 mins qually 10 lap race (say, 17 minutes dry racing). Total time is 32 minutes for £205. The other TTRS example was 20 mins practice and 2 x 25 Mins racing (not 20 mins Stacy). Total of 70 minutes for £225. So, the Oulton cost per minute of track time was £6.40 and the Brands Hatch TTRS was £3.20. If you divide the costs just by the RACING time, OP : £12.06/min vs BH : £4.50/min. Please explain why this represents the worst value of all !!!!

[Al Weyman]

Ha ha it all depends what double headers you are talking about though does'nt it!

[juliann]

Very true Al

[gixxer]

Originally Posted by DriversKnow

Hi

It's James from Dunlop.

I agree, Croft was disappointing from an entry point of view. Our job is to promote this package, with the BARC running and administering it.

I have been reassured by the championships that grid numbers will be up at Castle Combe. Some of our series have the majority of the drivers based in the south, and for those not chasing championship wins, Croft was unfortunately the one that they chose to drop. (Although I think they missed one of the best tracks in the country!)

Regarding Sport Maxx, it is the first championship year for the Cup after a successful few pilot races last year where over 20 cars raced. I'm told that the Combe grid will be more representative than Croft.

Drivers in the core Great and British Championships at Combe (Mini, Radical and Sport Maxx) will benefit from excellent TV coverage through Sky Sports and Motors TV so I'm hoping that, and the fact that Combe is one of the driver's favourite tracks, will entice them out.

Hello james,i was hoping you'd comment, why increase the time slot for the radical cup when really numbers are pretty low it should be reduced till the numbers pick up the problem is as mentioned in previous post above is this championship just isn't spectator friendly and the prospect of a 50 min race just gives me the shivers there's just nothing to get excited about and i know races like this just turn off the public who are not used to watching long races of cars that all look the same my better half was all for coming up to combe on the Sunday of the meeting TILL she read the words Radical Cup,yes i understand that you've got to appeal all but the word Boring seemed to be the one most used once you mention 50 mins of radical racing is this championship keeping people away.....i would'nt be supprised

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by juliann

The other TTRS example was 20 mins practice and 2 x 25 Mins racing (not 20 mins Stacy).

Apologies Julian, you are of course correct.

In my defence I was in something of a rush at the time...

[kipper]

Originally Posted by gixxer

why increase the time slot for the radical cup when really numbers are pretty low it should be reduced till the numbers pick up

I would question whether reducing race lenghts would create an increase in the grids for the UK Radical Cup. My reason for thinking this is that I would imagine the main attraction for drivers to do the championship if the length of track time available. I would therefore imagine that reducing the race time would therefore put a lot of existing/prospective drivers off the championship as its main selling point has diminished. Also the two driver format is a little bit pointless for say a 20-30min race. As a result I would speculate that a reduced race lenght would lead to a larger decline and would therefore be less of a spectacle for the spectators.

[Al Weyman]

Thats all well and good and no one has said its not good for the drivers of the cars it must be but its titled Best of British by which one assumes is to attract a viewing public to the best Britain can offer in motorsport but its obvious a lot of people just dont agree. I have to say I took two informative guys with me to the Snet one last year or the year before and they just were not impressed when the Radicals come on, hey but everyone knows I dont like one makes so I am biased.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Thats all well and good and no one has said its not good for the drivers of the cars it must be but its titled Best of British by which one assumes is to attract a viewing public to the best Britain can offer in motorsport

On a pedantic note, the package is called 'Great and British'. Notwithstanding this the connotations of the name are unchanged from above.

I guess the main problem of the package is that obviously there has to be a heavy Dunlop emphasis. As a result of the this, the choice of races can never be fully representative of the strong areas of British club motorsport. Personally, I don't have a great issue with this for the championships that feature on the package generate sufficient entries to ensure that they retain their permits from year to year and predate the formation of the package (with the exception of Sport Maxx, which is still very much in its early stages) so its not as if these races wouldn't take place if the package didn't exist.

[R59]

One of the issues you have here is that the Radicals are great fun to drive, and the competitors are keen as mustard.

Motorsport in the UK (and Europe) is mostly competitor led, not entertainment led.

If enough competitors get together, the can form a series, which in turn can become a championship providing it meets the MSA criteria. If there are enough competitors (potentially), then the organising club will group them together to form a race meeting and hire the circuit to make it happen.

Therefore, it has nothing to do with entertaining. It has nothing to do with the circuit owners (they've banked the cash, they don't care).

Back to Radicals, their numbers have suffered because V de V has taken off. For every V de V car you potentially lose up to two Radicals (because some drivers come from the Radical endurance races where they already run two drivers per car). V de V is "where it's at" right now in that level of sportscar racing.

Sport Maxx has another issue. That being Britcar Production S1, and Mr Tucker's series wins hands down. Yes it's more expensive, but the package is what people want, and Sport Maxx, regardless of the "Best of British" title is bottom bucket clubbie.

Motorsport in the UK needs a kick up the backside, and turning around by creating entertaining packages that people want to see. They want to see close racing, and Al - you ain't gonna like this - one make championships achieve that easily. The public also like crashfests! hence the success of the BTCC and it's lack of implementation or enforcement of the blue book.
The public like "angry cars", the right noise and fast.

The public don't 'get' our so called historic racing. To them it's old bangers racing around.

They don't 'get' Forumla Ford, or other spindley car stuff. Because of the total lack of marketing, they only understand the stuff that's marketed.....

National HotRods, F1/F2 Stockcars, and Bangers! Oh yes, and BTCC and F1.

And we've been through this before, the clubs won't market it because they have no benefit from gate money. The circuits won't market it because the club has paid them a nice wedge - thank you - good bye. And the MSA is a useless organisation of hobbledy hoi's in blazers who have lost touch with commercial reality.

Here endeth the rant.

[Al Weyman]

The public don't 'get' our so called historic racing. To them it's old bangers racing around.

Sorry Rob on most occassions you talk a lot of sense but with this statement I think you are way wide of the mark. I have found quite the opposite to your above statement and indeed the public that are left to spectate do enjoy the historic races and some very good ones outt here to watch as well. When and where ever I turn up with one of my old tubs there is always lots of interest and I think the races are good to compete in and generally good to watch.

[Ian Sowman]

One of the reasons BARC tried to revive Star of Mallory Formula Ford this year (but sadly failed) was that there was strong evidence that a Formula Ford race on the bill added quite significantly to the spectator attendance - so I think fans do 'get' Formula Ford.

[gixxer]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

One of the reasons BARC tried to revive Star of Mallory Formula Ford this year (but sadly failed) was that there was strong evidence that a Formula Ford race on the bill added quite significantly to the spectator attendance - so I think fans do 'get' Formula Ford.

As you and i both know Ian fford is usually one of the cloest races of any meeting which why this package should have the national ff1600 on the bill its a shame as ff1600 is great and its british,at least at this meeting [combe] we'll have the pleasure of Combes mighty ffords as we do at all combe meetings.Bring back the ginetta championship to the package along with the caterhams both have big grids and close racing and the public do like both.The best way to tackle the radicals is to put the whole lot together which would give plenty of overtaking a huge grid at least 3 classes so if the leader did go off into the distance he'll have to contend with backmarkers making mistakes more common so the win may well not be garenteed maybe then i could tolerate a 50 min race

[kipper]

Originally Posted by gixxer

Bring back the ginetta championship to the package along with the caterhams both have big grids and close racing and the public do like both.

Whilst the various Ginetta and Caterham championship are unquestionably popular and fit neatly into the 'Great and British' category, I can't see Dunlop being overly enthusiastic as making championships with Michelin (Ginettas) or Avon/Yokohama (Caterhams) control tyres a core part of 'their' package.

Originally Posted by gixxer

The best way to tackle the radicals is to put the whole lot together which would give plenty of overtaking a huge grid at least 3 classes

A good idea; however, there are too many Radicals across the two championships to fit them all on one grid at the majority of British circuits. For instance, Combe's maximum number of starters for this type of car is 34, which given the number of entrants at Croft as an example would mean 11 cars not getting a race. Such a move is unlikely to be too popular with those drivers.

[R59]

To answer your comment Al, you're talking about enthusiasts, not the bloke/totty in the pub/street - these are the people that the sport needs to attract. These are the people who don't get it.
You ol' tubs always generate interest because they are in the classification of "angry cars" - it's the V8 you know. Chevy's rule!!

Ian, again, you're talking about fans, enthusiasts. I too agree, FF can provide some very entertaining racing, though I do feel that there are tooo many FF championships thinning out the competition because there isn't enough money to do everything at once.

Gixxer is right, the public DO like Caterhams - hoards of them swarming around 2 & 3 wide, going FAST, and sounding like they mean it.

The world needs a replacement for Thundersaloons.

Dear Mr Dunlop. Please open your chequebook, we need big backing for the 2009 Dunlop Thundersaloon Championship. 75mile races, with two drivers. proper steel shelled cars (no spaceframes), with big powerful engines battling it out as gladiators of the track. Two classes - up to 2500cc, and over 2500cc.

Whatever you do, don't let the BRSCC run it. They killed it the last time!

The people will come, oh yes, they'll come, and all shall be rosy in the garden (until the fuel runs out)