Question from a driver...

[HairyDJ]

Originally Posted by The STIG

Wait for the next issue of Motorsports Now!?

Only if he appeals? And based on all the comments so far, appealing he is NOT

[Mr.Jingles]

Phone up the MSA maybe?

[Peter Harding]

I am not known for defending drivers but consider this.

We help the driver by displaying his number on a board ... normally just after about 20 other boards displaying an array of numbers.

They should be trained to see our one but we are not making things easy are we. I have suggested using an led display but this would need MSA approval but we could display such a board (led) somewhere else - away from all the other distractions - as well as the one on the startline.

Until we have a better system, it is the drivers responsibility to look for (and see) the flags/numbers and after (normally) 3 laps of Black/orange we will upgrade to black.

Black/orange is normally shown on request of scrutineers who are the "judges" on matters of car safety.

[Al Weyman]

While on a similiar subject i.e. getting info to drivers, is there any possibility of showing big lap boards so guys like me without pit crews know what lap we are on! I had a crippled car and was nursing it home at the weekend (Donny) but fortunately did this time see the last lap board something that I have not seen shown of late. This was very good info as I was about to pit but it would be nice to know what lap you were on. Snett used to have a big board you could read as you went past but these days nothing, I think a nice LED display on the start gantry would really be useful.

[Mr.Jingles]

I wonder if there is a market for a Control-to-car gadget to send info to the drivers? Flag conditions, number of laps left etc?

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Peter Harding

we could display such a board (led) somewhere else - away from all the other distractions - as well as the one on the startline.

BSB displays black & orange/black flags at a secondary post, away from the startline clutter, using conventional numbers.

[Mark Mitchell]

Black/Orange Flag (Meatball) is to inform a driver there may be a problem with the car that he is unaware of (Dropping fuel etc) and he should pit to get it checked. Therefore, it's a safety issue and is in the drivers best interests to obey the flag. Also, it could potentially save the driver ££££ if a problem is spotted and rectified at the earliest opportunity.

Many race series give points simply for finishing a race. Therefore I suspect that some drivers may choose to "Ignore" the Black/Orange flag to bag these precious points and take a chance on the CofC being lenient!

By being "Meatballed" there is a chance that a Scrute will not let the competitior back out onto the track, if the problem is serious/dangerous enough!

[Col_Rugby]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

BSB displays black & orange/black flags at a secondary post, away from the startline clutter, using conventional numbers.

We use it at every post now Dave. Each post also has a "numbers" board to be displayed along with the flag.

Could this be possible at car meetings or would this have to be talked about at the MSA first?

I appreciate that for this to work correctly & efficently then each flag point needs to have radio contact with race control, even just as a listening post.

On the flip side is it a really big problem? Does a driver missing a black & orange flag happen a lot? Does the current system need changing/updating?

Col

[Chigley]

I've had a driver acknowledge that the only reason he stopped after going passed several black/orange and black flags was that when on Post 2 at Brands I used a furled flag to aggressive point at him with every time he passed after missing the first flag. His comment was that he had missed a stationary limp hanging flag and the number board but being vigourously pointed at by a furled hi vis flag worked.

At Rockingham we have used the exit flag post at the Tarzan hairpin as a repeater post for startline black variant flags as some drivers complained they had restricted upward vision of the gantry flags. The flaggie there had radio contact with RC and displayed the flags at the same time as the gantry. The drivers were briefed and liked the idea. A flag point on the exit of a slow corner that is right in the drivers line of vision is ideal.

We also use a last lap board for every race whether required or not unless it is a high tech race (F3/GT....) where it is known that all drivers are in radio contact with their teams.

[CombeMarshal]

I know the culprit in this thread, At Combe The Black and Black and Orange flag is displayed before all the pit boards, the number board is black with bright orange boarder contrasting against the new white pit wall, you can not miss it!
unless you have your vision blocked by another car.

There seemed to be a fair bit of ignoring Black and Orange flags this weekend, one driver will wish he listened too! had spectators at camp mentioning how he had ignored it so many times, if you can see it from there you can see it when I hold it to your face as you pass by!

Originally Posted by Peter Harding

I am not known for defending drivers but consider this.

We help the driver by displaying his number on a board ... normally just after about 20 other boards displaying an array of numbers.

They should be trained to see our one but we are not making things easy are we. I have suggested using an led display but this would need MSA approval but we could display such a board (led) somewhere else - away from all the other distractions - as well as the one on the startline.

Until we have a better system, it is the drivers responsibility to look for (and see) the flags/numbers and after (normally) 3 laps of Black/orange we will upgrade to black.

Black/orange is normally shown on request of scrutineers who are the "judges" on matters of car safety.

[Mr.Jingles]

CombeMarshal, do you know if there was any further action? other than a DQ for that race?

[NICK ALLISON]

We should consider a large overhead message gantry similiar to those on the motorway and used at some indoor kart circuits.Messages of the flashing variety can include Safety Car, naughty boy flag symbols and numbers,last lap,race stop, etc .

[speedy jon]

Originally Posted by Mr.Jingles

I wonder if there is a market for a Control-to-car gadget to send info to the drivers? Flag conditions, number of laps left etc?

yeah a good idea but it would be the cost that will be needed to buy the gadgets.
i think f1 have a simular system?

[speedy jon]

Originally Posted by Mr.Jingles

I wonder if there is a market for a Control-to-car gadget to send info to the drivers? Flag conditions, number of laps left etc?

yeah a good idea but it would be the cost that will be needed to buy the gadgets.
i think f1 have a simular system?

[The STIG]

Originally Posted by Col_Rugby

We use it at every post now Dave. Each post also has a "numbers" board to be displayed along with the flag.
l

Speaking as a flaggie, there have been many times when I've been flagging on my own and had to run through all 5 flags in quick succession. I don't want another 2/3 and a numberboard cluttering up the place! It's hard enough doing SC

[speedy jon]

http://www.racecar.net/castlecombefo...?TOPIC_ID=2807


i think its this car we are on about here. im i right?

[Mr.Jingles]

Short answer, Yes.

To play devil's advocate, he wasn't the only offender that weekend - just the worst.

[Mr.Jingles]

http://www.racecar.net/castlecombefo...?TOPIC_ID=2801
This shortly before the spin (I think) at camp.

http://motorsportintheuk.fotopic.net/p52489922.html.
Keep on truckin!

[chezza]

One of the issues is that iirc the clerks have maximum penalties they can exact and for disobeying a flag they stop very short of a ban.

[Mr.Jingles]

Actually, that last one looks like a sidecar race

[Woolley]

When I did Champ Car we used a big black board with the words 'Black Flag' in day-glo orange with the number in large figures also in day-glo. More importantly, it was sited ahead of the last corner - at Rockingham inside turn 3 and at Brands on the entrance to Clearways (right hand side at the end of Bottom Straight). It worked an absolute treat. Clear, visible, away from other clutter and because it got them as they went in to the last corner they could go directly into the pits instead of having to complete another lap, unlike the traditional system that displays it just after they've passed pit entrance.

I can't recommend it highly enough. The obs on post also called in (landline) each time the car passed the board so that RC knew it had been properly displayed.

[DaveW]

Originally Posted by Mr.Jingles

On a related note, is there anyway to find out if they did get a fine / any kind of endorsement?

If the driver in question got excluded from the results it would mean 4 points on the licence.

Points are associated with the penalty applied so that:

Formal Reprimand - 2
Fine, time or place penalty - 3
Exclusion from race - 4
Exclusion from meeting - 6

[DaveW]

Originally Posted by Woolley

When I did Champ Car we used a big black board with the words 'Black Flag' in day-glo orange with the number in large figures also in day-glo. More importantly, it was sited ahead of the last corner - at Rockingham inside turn 3 and at Brands on the entrance to Clearways (right hand side at the end of Bottom Straight). It worked an absolute treat. Clear, visible, away from other clutter and because it got them as they went in to the last corner they could go directly into the pits instead of having to complete another lap, unlike the traditional system that displays it just after they've passed pit entrance.

I can't recommend it highly enough. The obs on post also called in (landline) each time the car passed the board so that RC knew it had been properly displayed.

A great idea Woolley but to implement for MSA permitted events would require a regulation change - perhaps one for the future.

[John Newman]

Methinks I detect a hidden agenda here..................

[Mr.Jingles]

Originally Posted by John Newman

Methinks I detect a hidden agenda here..................

What?

I wasn't racing that day, none of my teamates 'lost out' because he was already DQ'd and I'm so bloody new to Combe I don't even know the driver in question, let alone know him well enough to have an agenda! I didn't even identify the driver, someone else 'outted' him.

It was a genuine 'What can you do when the flagging system fails?' question - this isn't a 9/11 conspiracy