Is Club motorsport important to the growth of the top?

[Nero]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

The problem in money, as the 'promoters' are keeping their fees low to attract competitors, and as any sort of advertising is expensive, so you don't have to be a Einstein to work out why there is very little promotion. A bit of a vicious circle really.

Sorry this is bull****. From what I have seen promotion is often very poorly targeted and managed, which is what you expect when volunteers do the majority of the work (DON'T take this as a shot at volunteers, motorsport in Australia would not exist without them, but some jobs need professionals - even if only part time). Most magazines will cut rates significantly for events. Newspapers too. Radio is easy enough if you work at it - mainstream TV forget it.

[Nero]

Originally Posted by bazil

Grass root racers are still willingly and knowingly, involving themselves in a money guzzling past time, no grey area there. It’s an expensive activity
Agreed

How does it hinder other motorsport??

V8SC is incredibly successful at getting media coverage and hence money to flow towards it. Ignoring for now the allegations of some years past that went before the ACCC, it is reasonable to assume that V8SC dominates all other categories. In this regards it hinders, in a limited market there is limited potential and V8SC is the elephant in the room when discussing motorsport growth in Australia.

I think Club motorsport is vital to the growth and standard of the top of the sport. It’s from karting and the cheaper classes of racing that skills are learnt and talent levels appear. All sports have a base and nearly all who start have dreams of the top or somewhere higher up the scale, but not everyone is going to win or even come close to winning or progressing up.

The vast majority of people who do motorsport do not wish to do anything but enjoy themselves - most seem to ignor the V8SC as irrelevant. Hopefully few have delusions of a career in motorsports, however the average age of a motorsport competitor appears to be increasing in Australia, just as the 'product' ages e.g. how many young guys really want to watch HQ's or Commodore Cup?
Karting is growing not only because of the management (which is good) but also because there is a defined progression of formulas/classes, it is exciting, modestly priced and easy to access. Very few of these features relate in the same manner to current club level motorsport and certainly fewer relate to the management or control of motorsport in Australia.


Here is an idea. Have CAMS charge all sponsors in Australian motorsport a small levy or donation towards a youth/club racer development fund.

This last one had me laughing...CAMS charge sponsors...a CAMS GST!? For arguments sake they can for a start stop the gold star and use that money. After all why should we sponsor a driver to go overseas - what has been the long term benefit to Australian Motorsport from this?

[Tony C]

Originally Posted by Matthew Ronke

from a recent study on Auslesiure the following statement



This was for 1,500 Australian surveyed.

If this holds true for Motorsport then 2/3 of interested people are actually former participants in Motorsport (circuit/go-karting/speedway).

There is heated debate at time about if V8 Supercars should invest back in Motorsport for growth. I recall Bazil arguing that they do by paying a dividend back to teams who re-invest it.

I guess the survey also shows that permanent circuits play a large role in developing crowds. It could also be argued that people take up the sport because of V8 Supercars.

A lot of people have said before that’s not V8 Supercars job it is CAMS.
I am interested to hear people thoughts?

So Matthew, what is your question exactly?

Who should be promoting motorsport? or managing? or developing? They are all very different things and mean different things to different people.

What is club motorsport anyway? Are we only talking circuit racing or all motorsport? What drivers go from clubbies to V8 supercar or the equivelent?

Let everyone know the question and we can answer.

[wick]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

As to promotion - the problem with most club sport (whether it be athletics, roller blades, bikes or motorsport) is that the peopl promoting it tend to forget about their trade papers/magazines until about 1-2 weeks before the event and then complain that anything they put out didn't get printed.

They need to get of their collectives and ensure - for motorsport at least - that a release is send to MSN and AA at least 6 weeks before the event. The less these guys have to write themselves, the better for them.

And then there are the local Advertiser papers (everyone seems to forget about these but almost every household in the country gets at least one variety of these papers).

What's wrong with track operators/clubs (circuits, speedway, drags, karts, hillclimbs etc etc) setting up a central website for everyone to see the motorport calendar as a collective group. You drop down to your favourite form of motorsport or tracks that are in travelling distance to see whats happening. This gives the average punter a quick look. The link can be advertised in AA or MNews etc and once most peope have been there once they save it as a favourite.

The events calendar should be known several weeks/months in advance and in these days in infomation technology its out there well in advance.

Its not advertising - more of an information service and that would reduce some of the advertising costs for the club/promoter.

The people that are all ready participating in motorsport will be ware of the calendar, but you are looking for more information to the people who are gaining interest in the sport, or are part time followers - either as a potential competitor or spectator (who likes it so much he wants to help in an official capacity?)

[Casper]

Originally Posted by inpitlane

The people responsible for promoting grass roots motorsport are grass roots motorsport people. And they do an appalling job of it. The one exception is karting which is growing steadily and drawing bigger crowds and more young competitors. (and yes Arrow Karts are the main sponsor of In Pit Lane and they seem delighted and recently re-signed)

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. The AKA with Erdman's (ex president with good reason, he is now no longer the president) help are in more trouble than even CAMS can get into. The recent court case over restrictive trading in NSW being a hallmark of bad management. Karting in real terms has been going backwards for years, they had a high of about 13,000 members and today though I don't have the most recent figures it would be about half that. I would not hold that up as an achievement and a segment of motorsport going gangbusters in the popularity stakes.

If you must look at the roots of motorsport look at the car clubs. When they were popular we had a vibrant and well supported touring car series and rally championship. Car clubs died apart from a very few and so did the support base of motorsport. Karting in reality is staggering along and nothing more. In NSW the prospects of growing the sport are very dim indeed as there is only one track certified for AKA racing due to a brawl that ended up in the abovementioned court case.

Your grass roots of motorsport is not looking healthy at the moment and that is not good. Let's hope better times are ahead.

[Casper]

As an addendum to my post grass roots motorsport needs definition. Everyone here assumes it means racing, well back in the good old days when motorsport was actually popular and car clubs were numerous circuit racing by the average member was not done and not even thought of. The events were numerous and varied and above all cheap as everyone used their road car. That is true grass roots motorsport.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by Casper

As an addendum to my post grass roots motorsport needs definition. Everyone here assumes it means racing, well back in the good old days when motorsport was actually popular and car clubs were numerous circuit racing by the average member was not done and not even thought of. The events were numerous and varied and above all cheap as everyone used their road car. That is true grass roots motorsport.

THEN!!!! not now.

I am a grass roots racer, and I do the racetrack thing, nearly all tracks have seen the benifit of catering for us. it is a big market NOW

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

I am a grass roots racer

Yes Trev, watching you race is like watching grass grow

[Trevor]

1:44 Paul, yours?

[Uncle Cranker]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

1:44 Paul, yours?

Touché !









.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Nero

Sorry this is bull****. From what I have seen promotion is often very poorly targeted and managed, which is what you expect when volunteers do the majority of the work (DON'T take this as a shot at volunteers, motorsport in Australia would not exist without them, but some jobs need professionals - even if only part time). Most magazines will cut rates significantly for events. Newspapers too. Radio is easy enough if you work at it - mainstream TV forget it.

Why is mainstream TV out?

Avalon Speedway always promote their Sprintcar events of commercial TV.

Sure, it's not during CSI Miami, but it is often during the V8 Supercars.

[Nero]

Originally Posted by chavez

Why is mainstream TV out?

Avalon Speedway always promote their Sprintcar events of commercial TV.

Sure, it's not during CSI Miami, but it is often during the V8 Supercars.

It's what I said about poorly targeted. Do you really want to advertise late at night wedged in between an infomercial about some ladies exercise product and hair removal cream for that brazillian look? Any other time and it is very expensive. Also the ol' 'we get to X No of people at 8pm' ploy is a bit sus too. During supercars might be ok, but then it's high cost.
I will say the so far unsaid thought: club racing is unpopular as a spectator sport atm largely because as a spectacle it is not very good - fields are generally small, the cars are often old and poorly presented. The race courses are often have poor facilities and access to view the action is often difficult. In addition to which you get ripped off by the vendors selling frankly crap food for a huge markup e.g. $4.50 for a small bucket of chips and $4.00 for a bottle of water.
Why would a punter try to take his family to see such a thing and how many punters have been persuaded not to try it because their partners hate it?
Back in the 'good old days' there simply was not the competition from other sports, activities and the poor facilities were accepted as the norm for any sporting venue. This was when there was only late night shopping on a Friday and shops closed on Saturday at 1pm! There was a defined footy season and cricket season and women played netball and not much else. Fast forward 30 years: For less than a season of club racing a punter can buy a motorbike, mountain bike, windsurfer, jetski, can fly interstate for $50 etc etc. Times change and the competition for attention changes, but motorsport seem to keep plugging away at the same old tired strategies with a bunch of increasingly older blokes standing around looking at eachother saying 'I don't know what's wrong with them' or 'remember when...'

Then we have Historic Sandown: Cars look nice and sound good. You can get close and the owners are friendly and willing to chat. The 'racing' is not close, but there is plenty to entertain you because of the variety.

Frankly I think we will have to accept that club level and to a lesser extent national meets are a dead loss as far as spectator support is considered.

[Silver 3]

Nero -I think you need to get out more. Presuming you are defining everything below V8 Supertaxi's as "club " level. I would like to see a line drawn so that below the professional level ie the V8 are professional. The next level of racing is all the national and quality state series( what I mean by quality is where the categories comply to a clear set of rules eg FF state series in Victoria & NSW( there are numerous other categories also in this grouping)
The next level of actual racing is where I see a dilution of the rules and conforming cars where the promoters proclaim more interest in proving an avenue for those to race beyond club sprints.Generally those events are track specific--I see that level as "club level" ie timed sprints and the all in type events eg the Top Gear QLD events.
Going back to Nero comments-- you need to go to Phillip Island next weekend and watch the racing-- in particular-- the Improved Production races, Sports Sedans, the Cue Sportscar 1 Hour race will all be hard fought real racing for those that venture out to watch.
Any real motor racing enthusiast will be really entertained and I am equally certain that any spectator will not be bored. It is a ripper meeting that has only to achieve part of it's potential to be memorable.
I am trying to be brief here-- the issue that I think promoters( promoting clubs and categories) is to get more defined structure in meetings ie create levels of meetings that are promoted as spectator desirable and not dish up nothing meetings that turn casual spectators off. A lot of petty politics and jealousies need to be put aside in the long term interests of everyone.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Nero

Times change and the competition for attention changes, but motorsport seem to keep plugging away at the same old tired strategies with a bunch of increasingly older blokes standing around looking at eachother saying 'I don't know what's wrong with them' or 'remember when...'

You've described the SCCA(Sports Car Club of America) here in the USA to a tee. Same old guys running the same old 1981 VW Rabbits and 1983 Swift Formula Fords they ran 30 years ago. Lots of bureaucracy and infighting.

However another sanctioning body popped up, NASA(National Auto Sport Association) which is doing quite well with some interesting classes and a way to get people in by starting them with track days with their road car if they want. They have had their growing pains, but have the momentum, so I think there is hope out there for grassroots motorsport.

As you said there is a lot of competition now for the almighty dollar but a lot of the motorsport strategies being used go back 50 years. Certainly there is a lot of improvement that can be had.

[Nero]

Silver I have attended (hell even competed at a couple!) 16 motorsport meetings in four states this year and will be at PI Sat/Sun- you?
These meetings have included all of the Vic rounds that have run FF and the thing I notice about it is that the top five or so are competitive and the field thins from then on. I also note that the crowd that watched the racing thinned when FF started, particularly is something like Sports Sedans preceded it. I think that 'firm rules' have little contribution to popularity or spectator appeal. It is also true that FF is one of the most expensive classes to be competitive in.
But I think your comment that "any real motor racing enthusiast will be really entertained" is too narrow - not everyone is like you (or me) and the number of people 'like us' is dwindling. And club level motorsport faces additional competition from people who might like to have a look.
Let me ask you this: what circuit has clean modern toilet facilities (very important to female partners and people with children and it is MUCh easier going if your partner likes the place too). What circuit has something free for kids to do to extend their attention span and ease the burden on parents? What circuit has comfortable seating out of the elements for casual spectators? What circuit has reasonably priced, quality food and a nice clean place to eat it?
Winton has improved in parts, but none of the above boxes would be ticked in my view. Sandown could come close for spectator comfort if the grandstand is open every meet and there is nothing for kids. Otherwise the food is expensive and poor, the toilets are third class. Phillip Island - newer area over the pits is promising for spectators if they were allowed in it all the time and if there were chairs. The toilets are not flash and sometimes clog and overflow. The food facilities are such that I always stop and get food before going there having never had a good coffee in the last 5 years - I am not going to pay $2 for a Nescafe! There is nothing for kids at all.
As a competitor you can self cater and prepare, but a casual spectator will expect a lot more for their money.
Getting people there can be solved, but getting them to want to come back is a different issue.
Here is an interesting fact: the Gippsland Car Club has developed it's own venue with its own money. it is FAR better for a spectator than any of the other Victorian venues - why?

[NewsStalker]

Any real motor racing enthusiast will be really entertained

And therein lies the problem - the sport is still being promoted (when even this happens) to a select group of people.

Motorsport isn't the only one with this problem though - a 6 hour race today attracted 'only' 184 competitors - one 24 hour race in 2 weeks is limiting one particular category/class to 180 entries - and may be sold out. Doesn't matter what type of sports these are - it is similar across the board.

As was said - people today have so many things thrust at them that they have a myriad of pasttimes to select from - and they WILL select the one that gives best value for money. Travelling 2-3 hours to go somewhere, have expensive non-apetising food made available, with poor facilities and what do you think the family will select? They would only be going IF someone in the family was involved (and then probably relunctantly).

[alfacors]

Originally Posted by Nero

Let me ask you this: what circuit has clean modern toilet facilities (very important to female partners and people with children and it is MUCh easier going if your partner likes the place too). What circuit has something free for kids to do to extend their attention span and ease the burden on parents? What circuit has comfortable seating out of the elements for casual spectators? What circuit has reasonably priced, quality food and a nice clean place to eat it?

Eastern Creek has everything except reasonably priced food. But they have improved the range by having a variety of food stalls at events like Muscle Car Masters (still overpriced, but other than Morgan Park everywhere else is overpriced). It has a covered grandstand, clean toilets, modernish facilities, and a kids playground next to the Grandstand. It doesn't have public transport infrastructure, but it does have plenty of space for parking.

[Silver 3]

Not attempting to get to long to answer a few points raised -- I do attend a lot of race meetings ,in some different capacities. No particular comment on the competative aspect-most categories at any level tend to have a limited number of potential winners.
I disagree stongly about the circuits Nero named--Sandown has facilities as good as it gets(all paid for by a professional sport)BTW the grandstand is open at race meetings.Phillip Island food choice is good--as good as you could expect.The coffee comment you make is specifically wrong.The general toilet facilities at all 3 Victorian circuits named are in the better 1/2 of public faciliies.
So I do not think they are particularly valid points.
All of those issues pale into insignificence compared with not getting the "show" itself right--if it does not capture public interest it will not draw them back.
Too many boring,non stimulating categories on the V8 program has promoted public indifference.Overexposed categories repetatively used to fill programs only serves to compound the problem.
That is where my earlier point is relevent--if there was a better plan for the structure of race meetings the effort could then be put in by competitors to be there, promoters to promote around it and maybe,maybe, create meetings that do draw paying customers. EG Winton has promoted in the local(large) area quite well in recent times(5 years) and drawn a significent number of paying customers.
The key to that then becomes the entertainment that is put on-get it right and those people will come back and hopefully bring their friends.
What makes a restructure almost impossible is that everyone- competitors ,promoters,CAMS are all reluctant to understand that it is a problem with a solution- and if they can see the merit are reluctant to concede anything in the short term for a long term gain.
To expand briefly-- the top of the tree is A/ the professional V8 Supertaxi Meetings
B/ The so called "national" meetings
C/ State Level Championship meetings(proper categories )
D/ Other racing localised to specific track or area( eg Top Gear Qld -- I would like to include what Winton is doing with its VMRC, but I am trying to avoid that political issue. Basically these meetings would very much target club sprint level and create a "soft" entry to circuit racing. It would and is already creating opportunity to get more into the sport.
If we take a few categories of cars as an example-- F/Ford, Sport Sedans, Sports(as in GT/Sportscars)-- they can virtually race in everything listed above-- the obvious difference is in the quality of the car and quantity of the budget. The point being-you cannot be everywhere.
For the huge majority in any category to try and do 12 meetings a year is virtually impossible. For the lower end- 3/4 without to much pressure is a big ask.
Taking the biggest group-- a really good State Series of 6 rounds, 2 local National type rounds ,and maybe 1/2 interstate trips ,plus a special event like a Clipsal,F1AGP,Indy,Bathurst, or perhaps a Island Magic would make up 12( talking here as a Victorian btw) and a ver full program. To follow a full National series adds significent costs to any race program.
If the 6 State rounds could be shared properly( 2@ each venue) that was clearly marketed and identified as THE State Champoinship it would have a chance to establish a relevence.

[Nero]

Then I'm sorry I need to reverse your comment and say that you need to get out more - so many sports do so much better than state level motor racing does. Go to France - the venues are *clean* and the food is good for the money. Avoid the majority of the UK, I think Sandown is based on Silverstone, which is a soulless place - but even there I have had better food for the money. You seem to think that these things are not an issue - I strongly suggest that they are. Hell there have been times that I have left a venue to get food and have not bothered to return. After two visits to Winton I cannot get my wife to return due to the states of the toilets (as for being better than 1/2 the public facilities - you think that a paying customer should accept that do you?) - if she will not go my chances of going are severely reduced - as any married man with young kids will testify - keeping your wife happy is important.
You do not need to convince me of the possible interest Silver, but my issues are symptomatic of some of the problems and these problems will be show stoppers for many people.
BTW since I do coffee reviews at times I'll stand by my comments, PI gets a 2.5/10.
Now there is a Triathalon at St Kilda in one week - the food and facilities will be far better there and the 'crowd' will be 3-4000. So if the Sandown facilities are as good as it gets then I think we're doomed, because frankly it is not good enough. It is not rocket science, lets take Sandown: the food is overpriced crap and the vendors are not local, but the usual tired ring ins...and I personally refuse to pay $7.50 for a bad cheeseburger and $4.50 for chips. However broaden the horizons - Sandown faces big complaints with the local community about noise etc. The local community sees no value in it and yet 1.5km away lies the biggest vietnamese shopping area in Melb with the best french style bakeries and take away food joints. Give them a free spot and let them sell food. Involve them, give them a stake in the event and all of a sudden you will get a voice in the local community supporting the events as they will be making good money...and you will get good food.
As for 'the show' I strongly disagree: if you want entertainment for paying customers then the program would have to be radically changed to make it relevant to the customer. On a rating of (1-10 with 10 being the biggest draw card) I would suggest the following would apply - FF (2-3), GT's (6), Marque Sports (5), MG's (3), IP (8), Sports sedans (8), Historic tourers (7) - you can add your own or disagree.
But Silver why do you want to insist on paying customers? What percentage of paying customers do you think know someone who is already there racing? I would suggest around 80%...this is dead wood and not growth. 'The show' is part of the greater 'event' (the whole experience of a race meeting) and currently the 'event' draws a smaller crown than the Mazenod seconds footy team.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

THEN!!!! not now.

So motorkhanas, hillclimbs etc don't count in your view. Not everyone wants to or can race a car. Most car enthusiasts in fact don't want to race on a circuit NOW!!! or then. It is these people who in fact form the floor level of car club enthusiasts with a very small minority going on to run full blooded circuit racing. In your view if a person does not race on a circuit he does not count, Nero obviously is of the same opinion. This is getting close to an elitist view of club motor sport. Those who hold this view most probably wonder why numbers are going down when they are in fact addressing the middle range of motor sport not the lower range.

I think but am willing to be proven wrong that CAMS as a whole and certainly AASA are of the opinion that club motor sport is old fashioned and unnecessary. if I may use an analogy, when a kindergarten is removed from a school there is no entry level for that school and it slowly whithers away, motor sport in this country is in that situation or close to it.

If I were owned a facility such as Wakefield I would take a long hard look at what Amaroo Park offered and wonder how that concept might be used again. A multi use venue in NSW would go a long way to rejuvinating motor sport in NSW though it would be a very long term plan. Seeds need to be planted......

[Silver 3]

Nero -you have too many points either plain wrong or misguided to bother trying to reply.No offense intended.

[Nero]

Casper, you are incorrect. My own personal motorsport is hillclimbs and circuit sprints and other events like Speed on Tweed. I have neither the money nor inclination to go racing ATM and I certainly don't have the time (though I support three friends who race). I find it interesting that we have so many car club members in this state, most of whom pay a fee to be a 'member' of CAMS affiliated car club and yet we cannot get more than a hundred spectators to a round at a suburban track like Sandown.
Silver seem unable to answer my points that he disagrees with and I don't take any offence as we are simply discussing point on a forum. However I would point out that I started Race Magazine ( www.racemagazine.com.au ) six years ago with my own money expressly to promote grass roots motorsport. During this time I have seen the number quality of cars at circuit sprints improve markedly. In a similar vein the new Bryant Park is fully booked for next year and is a world class facility and certainly the match of any British hill climb.
As part of the magazine work I expressly go out of my way to talk to different people and ask them about motorsport. My opinion is based on these conversations at car clubs etc, perhaps Silver you should broaden your horizons and speak to a broader community and not just people you think like you do. I fully understand why the local community around Sandown does not support the motorsport - they have no stake in it. Hell how hard would it be to do a post drop inviting the owners in the houses to attend some race meetings for free?

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

I would like to include what Winton is doing with its VMRC, but I am trying to avoid that political issue.

Several years ago when the CAMS state series all but died (mainly due to no Calder or PI) Winton created the Champion of Winton series to give state level racers somewhere to play, this was all years before the whole AASA thing started.

Originally Posted by Nero

1.5km away lies the biggest vietnamese shopping area in Melb

with some of the best Pork Rolls you can find this side of the local Emergency department