FIA GT3 to join the B12hr race as the leading class?!

[Belly13]

Originally Posted by alfacors

Perhaps running a 1hr *sprint* race for GT cars on the Friday afternoon, and then a 3 hour enduro for GT cars on the Saturday afternoon would be an alternative? Best of both worlds?

Now that's not a bad idea at all!!!

[davelise]

Even better idea.

12hr Production car race then 12hr GT race. make it a 24 weekend.

[cptkablamo]

I would like to see this but only if the intregrity of the GT Championship remained (i.e. competitors did not enter this event instead of the Championship). I have had discussion with those involved with the Championship in the past and an event like this could cost the better part of the entire season's budget to outfit their cars and service them afterwards.

I would also like to see the Production aspect not be watered down too much.

But a return of GT cars to the Mountain for a longer race would certainly be a good thing...great idea from Dave there...what about midnight to midday...1am to 1pm...that would be a good weekend

[nafe!]

So any news on wether or not this idea is gaining traction?.

[paydirt]

Originally Posted by Belly13

However, I think production car entrants will decrease just as quickly. I know for a fact that when this rumour was doing the rounds at the event last month, a lot of drivers said they wouldn't be back - including Garry Holt and Jim Hunter.

Arguably, Gary Holt probably wouldn't have been back anyway, considering the BMW must be close to its use-by date......with an incredible success- rate may I add....

[pplater]

Originally Posted by paydirt

Arguably, Gary Holt probably wouldn't have been back anyway, considering the BMW must be close to its use-by date......with an incredible success- rate may I add....

I reckon the BMW should buy it from him to put in a a museum or something like that. What a car.

[Wood-duck]

I am not a fan. Point blank.

Have we not learned the lessons of Nations Cup, the Bathurst 24 hour and Carrera Cup ? We have all been here before.....and we all appear to have very short memories...

The beauty of the Bathurst 12 hour was it's affordability, the market relevance to the vehicles that competed and that it was a geninue endurance race with a variety of racing drivers from different experience levels and disciplines.

GT3 in Australia is only sustainable as long as there are rich punters to buy and drive the cars. As soon as the richies get the sh*ts becuase they are out-spending each other or get bored, the category implodes. What will happen when Simonsen rocks back with the Ferrari and blows everyone into the weeds again ?

Carrera Cup has gone this way... so did Nations Cup before that.... Indeed most of the GT3 field are just a home for all the Carrera cup leftovers...

European and Asian entrants ? Yes that is a possibility. But it was also a possibility at the 24 hour, and for the Super Touring 1000 and numerous other events that have been touted as "world class".

All that this "possibility" produced was a handfull of semi professional outfits that couldn't even match the semi professional australian teams. It turned out to be a dissapointing anti-climax.

The timing of the event is not-conductive to half of Europe trekking there toys around the world for an event that nobody outside Australia gives a rats about. Especially right on the door step of the kick off of their domestic seasons....

And you are right in saying that there would be a lot of production car competitors that would not return unless outright honours was at stake. Many of them wouldnt spend their money to play second fiddle to probably 10 hand-me-down GT3 cars piloted by rich muppets with rung in hot shots to put the thing on pole and put the rich players on a egotistical pedestial.

Let's look at the Mustang as an example. The Zuka's spent/spending a bomb in developing a car that could challenge for outright honours now and in the future. Now that very expensive toy is an also-ran overnight. Same for the TMR Evo's, and the variety of other production cars springing up around the countryside.

The 12 hour was a great race this year. It will get there on it's own merit with it's own rule book. More and more cars are being put into the pipeline with a view to run the race, and behind it the manchamps are slowly gelling into a worthwhile escapade....with the 6 hour and Eastern creek and the new format, it is looking attractive. And not a Supercar in sight....

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Wood-duck

I am not a fan. Point blank.

Have we not learned the lessons of Nations Cup, the Bathurst 24 hour and Carrera Cup ? We have all been here before.....and we all appear to have very short memories...

The beauty of the Bathurst 12 hour was it's affordability, the market relevance to the vehicles that competed and that it was a geninue endurance race with a variety of racing drivers from different experience levels and disciplines.

GT3 in Australia is only sustainable as long as there are rich punters to buy and drive the cars. As soon as the richies get the sh*ts becuase they are out-spending each other or get bored, the category implodes. What will happen when Simonsen rocks back with the Ferrari and blows everyone into the weeds again ?

Carrera Cup has gone this way... so did Nations Cup before that.... Indeed most of the GT3 field are just a home for all the Carrera cup leftovers...

European and Asian entrants ? Yes that is a possibility. But it was also a possibility at the 24 hour, and for the Super Touring 1000 and numerous other events that have been touted as "world class".

All that this "possibility" produced was a handfull of semi professional outfits that couldn't even match the semi professional australian teams. It turned out to be a dissapointing anti-climax.

The timing of the event is not-conductive to half of Europe trekking there toys around the world for an event that nobody outside Australia gives a rats about. Especially right on the door step of the kick off of their domestic seasons....

And you are right in saying that there would be a lot of production car competitors that would not return unless outright honours was at stake. Many of them wouldnt spend their money to play second fiddle to probably 10 hand-me-down GT3 cars piloted by rich muppets with rung in hot shots to put the thing on pole and put the rich players on a egotistical pedestial.

Let's look at the Mustang as an example. The Zuka's spent/spending a bomb in developing a car that could challenge for outright honours now and in the future. Now that very expensive toy is an also-ran overnight. Same for the TMR Evo's, and the variety of other production cars springing up around the countryside.

The 12 hour was a great race this year. It will get there on it's own merit with it's own rule book. More and more cars are being put into the pipeline with a view to run the race, and behind it the manchamps are slowly gelling into a worthwhile escapade....with the 6 hour and Eastern creek and the new format, it is looking attractive. And not a Supercar in sight....

Here, here! Well said Woody.......why risk ruining a great race.......GTs to race on their own on Saturday and then we may end up with two great races.

[mtpanorama]

Originally Posted by Wood-duck

I am not a fan. Point blank.

Have we not learned the lessons of Nations Cup, the Bathurst 24 hour and Carrera Cup ? We have all been here before.....and we all appear to have very short memories...

The beauty of the Bathurst 12 hour was it's affordability, the market relevance to the vehicles that competed and that it was a geninue endurance race with a variety of racing drivers from different experience levels and disciplines.

GT3 in Australia is only sustainable as long as there are rich punters to buy and drive the cars. As soon as the richies get the sh*ts becuase they are out-spending each other or get bored, the category implodes. What will happen when Simonsen rocks back with the Ferrari and blows everyone into the weeds again ?

Carrera Cup has gone this way... so did Nations Cup before that.... Indeed most of the GT3 field are just a home for all the Carrera cup leftovers...

European and Asian entrants ? Yes that is a possibility. But it was also a possibility at the 24 hour, and for the Super Touring 1000 and numerous other events that have been touted as "world class".

All that this "possibility" produced was a handfull of semi professional outfits that couldn't even match the semi professional australian teams. It turned out to be a dissapointing anti-climax.

The timing of the event is not-conductive to half of Europe trekking there toys around the world for an event that nobody outside Australia gives a rats about. Especially right on the door step of the kick off of their domestic seasons....

And you are right in saying that there would be a lot of production car competitors that would not return unless outright honours was at stake. Many of them wouldnt spend their money to play second fiddle to probably 10 hand-me-down GT3 cars piloted by rich muppets with rung in hot shots to put the thing on pole and put the rich players on a egotistical pedestial.

Let's look at the Mustang as an example. The Zuka's spent/spending a bomb in developing a car that could challenge for outright honours now and in the future. Now that very expensive toy is an also-ran overnight. Same for the TMR Evo's, and the variety of other production cars springing up around the countryside.

The 12 hour was a great race this year. It will get there on it's own merit with it's own rule book. More and more cars are being put into the pipeline with a view to run the race, and behind it the manchamps are slowly gelling into a worthwhile escapade....with the 6 hour and Eastern creek and the new format, it is looking attractive. And not a Supercar in sight....

I totally agree.
The 12 hr has been coming along nicely with its production car base. I don't see any benefit in allowing a handful of GT3 cars in at, what will most likely be, the expense of production cars.
I know of one team who were looking at upgrading from what they have run in the last few years to something faster. Now they will most likely have to get something faster so they are not getting lapped by cars 40sec a lap faster than them, or they will not turn up at all .

Yes the current race is all about outright victory with the classes also getting a good showing on TV. But I think the GT3 cars will take away a lot of the prestige of the front runners, and also the potential for manufacturer involvement in the race.


I think the better solution would be to give the GT3 cars a 4 hour race on Saturday . It could even be started at 5pm so it ended in darkness.

[Wood-duck]

If the GT3 guys reckon they can 'make the event' why not throw on their own enduro at the festival of sporting cars ? after all, they are the ultimate sports cars ;-)

72 cars is outraegous. Even with 40-something this year track space particularly in qualifying was hard to come by if you listen to the front running drivers. BY all accounts, catching the Yaris at the end of conrod produced a huge speed difference... throw another 40-50k's plus onto a GT3 car and you have a serious safety concern.

I thought the track density at Mount Panorama was 55 ?

[Sheep Stations]

The contradictions, double standards and left wing attitudes expressed in the last few posts are breath-taking.

So, a few of the 'production' car lads are huffy at the thought of their EVO's, elderly BMW's and WRX's not being outright contenders for the B12hr? Someone tell me how they have any relevance or deserve reverence for being representative of the Australian car-buying public in any case?

It is a motorsport event, like a circus, rock concert or any other show. Bums on seats and participants make it successful. Any other focus is superfluous.

The Sepang 12hr is class based and includes GT2 cars. When I went in 2008, a 996 RSR from USA won it after the factory BMW Z4 died in the 11th hour. But the main focus and story was on the cars who came 4th and 5th outright. 2 Honda Civics...

There were 92 starters ranging from Porsche 997 RSR's to Protons. Why would we not want something like this?

Love the rich muppet and 'leftovers' references, adds so much 'class' to the discussion.

[Alan52]

The more I've thought about the cars in Australian GT running 12 hours around Bathurst the more I think it would be a complete Porsche domination as the weight factor in the Lambo's etc take some other marques out and the chance of the existing teams running Moslers,Audis etc getting 12 hour reliability is nil.If people were complaining about Mitsubishi domination this year (and remember they were beaten) they would have much more to complain about with the front of the field being a Porsche Cup race for the last 10 hours of a Bathurst GT 12 Hour.

[rich07]

The Nurburgring 24hrs has been running GT2/3 and production cars together at least for the last decade, I don't hear anyone complaining about that. You have Porsches and exotic metal up the front but there's always interest in the other production based classes too so why not here?

As long as there is good exposure and recogntion of class winners as well as outright then I can't see why we can't have a race like that at Bathurst.

[Wood-duck]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

The contradictions, double standards and left wing attitudes expressed in the last few posts are breath-taking.

So, a few of the 'production' car lads are huffy at the thought of their EVO's, elderly BMW's and WRX's not being outright contenders for the B12hr? Someone tell me how they have any relevance or deserve reverence for being representative of the Australian car-buying public in any case?

It is a motorsport event, like a circus, rock concert or any other show. Bums on seats and participants make it successful. Any other focus is superfluous.

The Sepang 12hr is class based and includes GT2 cars. When I went in 2008, a 996 RSR from USA won it after the factory BMW Z4 died in the 11th hour. But the main focus and story was on the cars who came 4th and 5th outright. 2 Honda Civics...

There were 92 starters ranging from Porsche 997 RSR's to Protons. Why would we not want something like this?

Love the rich muppet and 'leftovers' references, adds so much 'class' to the discussion.

Touch a nerve did we ?

Look - It has been PROVEN before, several times, that this sort of racing just does not appeal to the greater motor sporting community. GT3 had it's go - the 24hr. It didnt work. Porsche and sports car punters had the chance again, to show that they could be SUSTAINABLE. Nations cup. Sorry, didnt work either. Oh, and then someone thought Carrera cup would be a hit. emmmm.... sorry, didnt carry any real enthusiasm with the public either.

If this type of racing was so red hot, these catergories would still be around. They aren't. Ask youself why that is..

Why do people think that just because you have a handful of uber expensive GT3 cars that it a better show that will put "bums on seats"? When history tells us otherwise. Why destroy what has the makings of a great event for the masses to soothe the egos of the few ?

Production car racing, on the other hand, formed the backbone of the sport in this country. The 12 hour has been always for production cars, and the reference to 'elderly' cars and there relevance? Well, I hate to burst anyone's bubble -but... they are a damn sight more relevant than some downmarket Le Mans sports car that costs more that the median house price for the country... and can only be afforded by, i will rephrase my term so i dont touch any further nerves.. "Gentleman racers"...

Do you see the young people of this country hotting up and joining clubs about Moslers, or Lamborgini's ? I dont think so.

The 12 hour is in a growth phase, and as with 12 hour Mark 1, the growth has been good and steady. Not crazy and unsustainable. The factories will come.. it is only a matter of time.

Why should production car racers be appaulding the possible decision to become, what i can only describe, as glorified grid-fillers ? For an event that they supported and effectively put back 'on the map'. You have to be joking....

Do you think TMR - a semi factory operation - or Product, or Holden or the Zuka's would do doing handstands about running agianst the Moslers and Lambo's and Porsches for the glory of a production car class win when that win will be overshadowed by a outright win for a racing car ?

Of course not.

It makes no commercial sense. I reckon for every 1 GT3 car that is entered, you will have 1 or more production cars pull out....leaving you with less than when you started.

Returning now to the left wing of the house...

[EGG]

Another porsche cup doesn't interest me, would rather leave it as production cars and see it grow.

[bluesport]

Left wing? ......where did he pull that from?

[Wood-duck]

In my mind we are more to the right than left, but anyway....

[davo.]

Originally Posted by mtpanorama

I totally agree.
The 12 hr has been coming along nicely with its production car base. I don't see any benefit in allowing a handful of GT3 cars in at, what will most likely be, the expense of production cars.
I know of one team who were looking at upgrading from what they have run in the last few years to something faster. Now they will most likely have to get something faster so they are not getting lapped by cars 40sec a lap faster than them, or they will not turn up at all .

Yes the current race is all about outright victory with the classes also getting a good showing on TV. But I think the GT3 cars will take away a lot of the prestige of the front runners, and also the potential for manufacturer involvement in the race.


I think the better solution would be to give the GT3 cars a 4 hour race on Saturday . It could even be started at 5pm so it ended in darkness.

Mount Panorama are you able to give us a hint of what team you are referring to, and what car are they thinking of upgrading too?

[mtpanorama]

I can give you a hint.....Bathurst.

Not sure what they are looking at yet, few things to consider. They would like to be in a class where there are other cars to compete against.

[davo.]

Originally Posted by mtpanorama

I can give you a hint.....Bathurst.

Not sure what they are looking at yet, few things to consider. They would like to be in a class where there are other cars to compete against.

Actually come to think about it, that team did state that they were considering stepping up a class before acquiring their current car.
I do understand that they would like competition, would be a shame to lose their current car though.

[johnh875]

I'd prefer to see it stay the way it is too, and run a separate GT3 12/24hr race. Adding GT3 cars would change the character of the event completely, no more "showroom showdown", within-reach feel to it. Seeing the competitiveness of the existing rwd cars this year, I'm even questioning the need to include a M3/C63/ISF/Cayman class.

[Wood-duck]

If they would like a Turbo version of that WRX they have MtP, I can do them a great deal

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by johnh875

I'd prefer to see it stay the way it is too, and run a separate GT3 12/24hr race. Adding GT3 cars would change the character of the event completely, no more "showroom showdown", within-reach feel to it. Seeing the competitiveness of the existing rwd cars this year, I'm even questioning the need to include a M3/C63/ISF/Cayman class.

I can't see the point in adding cars that then make the current cars less competitive or uncompetitive altogether (EVO's, HSV's, F6's, WRX's etc)........the invitational class is a handy tool for allowing entry of cars that may be over the price threshold but within the performance threshold.

[nafe!]

Originally Posted by johnh875

I'd prefer to see it stay the way it is too, and run a separate GT3 12/24hr race. Adding GT3 cars would change the character of the event completely, no more "showroom showdown", within-reach feel to it. Seeing the competitiveness of the existing rwd cars this year, I'm even questioning the need to include a M3/C63/ISF/Cayman class.

The only reason the sportswagon and the bmw were competitive was due to the rain. The wagon made big inroads on the evo's due to its heavy footprint. In the dry it was getting thrashed.

The cars that you mentioned are much more in keeping with the events make up and at the same time will bring more character as well as a very small increase in speed (at least for the rear wheel drive class).

However it is unlikely to have an impact on spectator attendence like introducing the gt3's would.

Im still in two minds over this. A good field of gt3 drivers with profesional drivers in the mix would be a fantastic edition to the race, assuming your not a production car runner.

At the moment i think the best compromise is running a shorter gt enduro on the saturday of the event, say a 3-4 race. Long enough that it gives the field a chance to race like they would in a serious enduro, short enough that it keeps the fans entertained, can be shown on tv for its entire length and hopefully cheap enough that a big field will commit to it. Add to it a requirement that each championship class car has to field at least 1 profesional driver and i think you would have a winner.

[Wood-duck]

good idea nafe1... 3 or 4 hours in the twilight on the saturday afternoon/evening would be quite spectactular, although long days for the marshalls. Not too much of a strain on the expensive toys, there will be enough 'professional' drivers in the area and available anyway (due to 12 hr) and we get the glowing brake discs etc

I would also really like to see Group C/A historics added to the supports. Now that would be unreal...