[LM24] Front splitter/diffuser regulations

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

all the gt2 cars are basically prototype cars......this guy just got his BMW repo'd hence the BMW hate.

BMW built a GT2 car. the BMW M3 roadcar is not even in the same league as the ferrari 458 italia/corvette Z06/Porsche 911 road cars. the BMW is significantly heavier and parts cost has been sacrificed to provide a cheaper car. On the order or as much as half the Porsche and half a third the Ferrari.

but thats not the point of GT2. they don't just exclude cars. Good thing your not in charge of the ACO. there'd probably be no diesels and no manufacturers.

Your not the ACO. Either your wrong or the ACO is wrong.........i doubt you have any say in the ACO.

you are totaly missing the point of GT2 it is not GT3, the only car that is crap on the road and actuly is alowed to race and win the class is the BMW, all other crap cars on the road are far behind the ferrari/porsche/corvette. the point of the gt2 class was to alow manufacturers to race their modified road cars under the same rules. the only exception to this is the BMW. all others that entered had to folow rules, the Aston, the spyker, the jaguar, lotus.... only bmw has been given huge dispensations to built whatever the hell they want. and I am not talking about the BoP. I am talking about the rules by withc the cars are built.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

new car? how soon?

next 911, or the chassis 991, gt3 rsr should comeout in 2013, amybe we see it in a few races during 2012.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by arakis

you are totaly missing the point of GT2 it is not GT3, the only car that is crap on the road and actuly is alowed to race and win the class is the BMW, all other crap cars on the road are far behind the ferrari/porsche/corvette. the point of the gt2 class was to alow manufacturers to race their modified road cars under the same rules. the only exception to this is the BMW. all others that entered had to folow rules, the Aston, the spyker, the jaguar, lotus.... only bmw has been given huge dispensations to built whatever the hell they want. and I am not talking about the BoP. I am talking about the rules by withc the cars are built.

what other crap cars? i think you just insulted america lol.

The BMW M3 is crap on the road?.....can you be serious here. your sounding more and more biased against BMW.... The M3 is not a crap car.....


As annoying and ridiculous as this sounds, show me the dispensations. Otherwise it's hearsay...

In addition Corvette recieves many waivers as well.....Why do you not take any offense with the corvette. Once again your makingme believe your are more and more biased. Its hard to listen to you when you keep proving that you have a bias against BMW.

I don;t particualary care about BMW, Audi fan here. but you don;t see me just pure hating on BMW. did you hear yourself?(you said the BMW M3 is a crap car. thats sounds like flatout bias.

[MitchZ06]

Aerodynamically the BMW is a brick = crap compared to the slippery shaped Porsches, Corvettes, Ferraris.
Size wise its bigger than the rest, as a road car it weighs more too but I'm not sure about the racing version. Its crap in that regard too.
It gets a ton of waivers so it must be crap if it needs so many breaks to keep up with and beat the faster cars.

I don't think he's biased against the BMWs, I think you're just taking what he's saying out of context...

[Audi Racer]

What about the Corvette?........

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Aerodynamically the BMW is a brick = crap compared to the slippery shaped Porsches, Corvettes, Ferraris.
Size wise its bigger than the rest, as a road car it weighs more too but I'm not sure about the racing version. Its crap in that regard too.
It gets a ton of waivers so it must be crap if it needs so many breaks to keep up with and beat the faster cars.

I don't think he's biased against the BMWs, I think you're just taking what he's saying out of context...

Show me the waivers. do you have proof. show me the link to the official waivers.

the racing version races at the same weight as the rest of the GT's

[MitchZ06]

Aerodynamically the Corvette is very very good, its got a hell of alot less drag than the BMW so is better on fuel and needs less power.
Size wise its similar to the Porsche and Ferrari, as a road car its also extremely light.

The waivers being talked about are the breaks the Corvette has been given since last season when it was strangled out of contention from the ACO's fear it'd do a GT1 and dominate.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Aerodynamically the Corvette is very very good, its got a hell of alot less drag than the BMW so is better on fuel and needs less power.
Size wise its similar to the Porsche and Ferrari, as a road car its also extremely light.

The waivers being talked about are the breaks the Corvette has been given since last season when it was strangled out of contention from the ACO's fear it'd do a GT1 and dominate.

?? waivers for the corvette?? i asked about the waivers for the BMW. . You said "it gets a ton of waivers". Link me to the waivers list....

[MitchZ06]

At the bottom of page 2 you said this:

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

What about the Corvette?........

In reply to what I had to say about the BMW. I replied about the Corvette, don't forget what you say.....

If I had a link the waivers I'd have posted it now wouldn't I?

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

At the bottom of page 2 you said this:

In reply to what I had to say about the BMW. I replied about the Corvette, don't forget what you say.....

If I had a link the waivers I'd have posted it now wouldn't I?

so then why did you say the BMW got tons of waivers. You don't have proof. no one can believ you if you have no proof.

[MitchZ06]

I'm not the only one who'll say it tho and its been discussed previously by people far more experienced than myself....

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

so then why did you say the BMW got tons of waivers. You don't have proof. no one can believ you if you have no proof.

3 verry big ones, and you dont need access to the honologation to find them.
all you need is basic info about the car and the regulations, so go and reed the regulations regarding the suspension, engine position, and transmison layout.

or to make it easier for you here4 they are.
#1 The angine is moved out of its original position in the car. with is a no no by the regs.

#2 the suspension is compleatly different, and I dont mean the springs and .. I mean the whole asembly. witch is an even bigger no no by the regs.

#3 the transmison layout has been changed from a front mounted to a back mounted. also a huge no no.

there is little or no information about the corvettes waivers, and the powers that be dont seem to comment, so i cant either. from RLM I got that many of the waivers for the corvette were banal and not perfomance enhancing waivers. Stuff that would alow the car to race but wouldnt make it any faster without them.

the bigest problem with me and the BMW is that it is a crapy road car compared to all the rest in the field, and it is alowed to race and market its car in a class where it simply doesent belong. whitch makes cars that arew mubh better then it look bad from a marketing standpoint. and witch cars are better
here is a little list.

porsche 996 gt3 rs
porsche 997 gt3 rs
ferrari 430
ferrari 458
Ford GT
Lotus Evora
Spyker
Aston martin vantage
Corvette ZR1.
if all the cars on the list have had to folow the rules in the hope that they will have an equal competition why is bmw alowed so much , when it hurts all the others.
And to top it all of they are given a huge 1.2mm restrictor break, alowing them to have the engine with the most HP

[Deleted]

GT-R is the MC12 of GTE. Except for the fact that Maserati - and its street version - was always going to be superior compared to its opponents, the BMW had to be brought on the same level as others.

Both have already run unclassified outside their comfort zones, Maserati never went to Le Mans and had to run as non-championship entry in ALMS. At Spa 24 FIA didnt even put BMW on the same class as other GT2 cars.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Chiana

GT-R is the MC12 of GTE. Except for the fact that Maserati - and its street version - was always going to be superior compared to its opponents, the BMW had to be brought on the same level as others.

GTE is not for supercars but for sportscars, MC12 was a homologation special, ala porsche 911 gt1 '98

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by arakis

GTE is not for supercars but for sportscars

Umm I'm not even implying that.

[gvan]

Wow, this just exploded. As for people suggesting I'm trying to start something against BMW that's just crazy. And yes I'm pointing to something obvious, hence how I noticed it, obviously. My last daily driver was an E90 M3 and despite poor ergonomics and some quality issues compared to Audis, the engine and gearbox is astonishing in it's precision and eagerness. I loved that car.

Also a lot of GT2/GT3 talk. Now GT2 cars aren't even allowed in LMS anymore. It's GTE which is a whole separate class, granted it's similar to GT3 but not exactly. A car fully leveraging the GT3 rules will need some modifications to compete in GTE as there are some differences. The 430's and 458's definitely seemed to respect the front splitter and winglet rules. They were short and within the ultimate perimeter of the OEM bodywork. You could also see the lower winglets on the sides being bigger as they were more recessed (hence more distance to the max outer diameter) so they were clearly obeying and maximizing use of the rule.

I'm a little surprised by the concessions. I think a GT3 M3 could be brought close to the minimum 1245KG weight. It might be a stretch. But the regulations state they can adjust performance by the height of the wing gurney, the size of the restrictors, and reduced minimum weight. Bigger splitters and complete drivetrain redesigns aren't anywhere in there. Maybe they were able to stretch things out further because of the disadvantageous characteristic of a medium sized sedan vs Ferraris, but a stock E92 M3 will outrun a 911 and even edge out a 911S (Trust me, I know) and the 911's certainly aren't getting these advantages from the ACO despite their more limited displacement and smaller wheelbase/track.

Just some thoughts...

[arakis]

Originally Posted by gvan

Wow, this just exploded. As for people suggesting I'm trying to start something against BMW that's just crazy. And yes I'm pointing to something obvious, hence how I noticed it, obviously. My last daily driver was an E90 M3 and despite poor ergonomics and some quality issues compared to Audis, the engine and gearbox is astonishing in it's precision and eagerness. I loved that car.

Also a lot of GT2/GT3 talk. Now GT2 cars aren't even allowed in LMS anymore. It's GTE which is a whole separate class, granted it's similar to GT3 but not exactly. A car fully leveraging the GT3 rules will need some modifications to compete in GTE as there are some differences. The 430's and 458's definitely seemed to respect the front splitter and winglet rules. They were short and within the ultimate perimeter of the OEM bodywork. You could also see the lower winglets on the sides being bigger as they were more recessed (hence more distance to the max outer diameter) so they were clearly obeying and maximizing use of the rule.

I'm a little surprised by the concessions. I think a GT3 M3 could be brought close to the minimum 1245KG weight. It might be a stretch. But the regulations state they can adjust performance by the height of the wing gurney, the size of the restrictors, and reduced minimum weight. Bigger splitters and complete drivetrain redesigns aren't anywhere in there. Maybe they were able to stretch things out further because of the disadvantageous characteristic of a medium sized sedan vs Ferraris, but a stock E92 M3 will outrun a 911 and even edge out a 911S (Trust me, I know) and the 911's certainly aren't getting these advantages from the ACO despite their more limited displacement and smaller wheelbase/track.

Just some thoughts...

I sugest you inform yourself first before posting incorect statments.
The GTE class is the exact replica of the GT2 class it replaced, the rules are exacly the same, with minor modifications, the same minor modifications were also hapening every year for the old gt2 class . so GT2 is the GTE class.

GT3 class is totally different it is fully built from the start as a BoP class. every year the cars are thurally tested by the FIA and the BoP is defined.

in GT2 cars are given compestions in BoP only if they slak off more then 0.5%. witch is around 0.4s on a 1:30 lap

GT2/GTE class is built so manufactorers can race their modified road cars in direct competition hence all the works teams and drivers.

the GT3 class was built to alow nice and preaty cars to all run at the exact same pace artificaly.

the main difference GT2 class is defined by ruls, the GT3 class by BoP

with the BMW the gt2 class started to go the gt3 way, hence the ****ed off people, but next year the travesty that is BMW will be gonne, and it will have only won 1 sebring and maybe 2 ALMS titles, witch is insignificant compared to the results ferrari 430 and 997 have posted over the years

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by arakis

I sugest you inform yourself first before posting incorect statments.
The GTE class is the exact replica of the GT2 class it replaced, the rules are exacly the same, with minor modifications, the same minor modifications were also hapening every year for the old gt2 class . so GT2 is the GTE class.

If something has 'minor modifications', it can't be exactly the same...... Very nearly the same, but not exactly......

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

If something has 'minor modifications', it can't be exactly the same...... Very nearly the same, but not exactly......

similar modifications were done every year of the ngt/gt2 class life. so you could say this is the 2011 iterration of the gt2 class.

only the added 0.5% BoP is different then any changes made before.

[Aysedasi]

You could indeed, but I was being real picky.......

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by arakis

3 verry big ones, and you dont need access to the honologation to find them.
all you need is basic info about the car and the regulations, so go and reed the regulations regarding the suspension, engine position, and transmison layout.

or to make it easier for you here4 they are.
#1 The angine is moved out of its original position in the car. with is a no no by the regs.

#2 the suspension is compleatly different, and I dont mean the springs and .. I mean the whole asembly. witch is an even bigger no no by the regs.

#3 the transmison layout has been changed from a front mounted to a back mounted. also a huge no no.

there is little or no information about the corvettes waivers, and the powers that be dont seem to comment, so i cant either. from RLM I got that many of the waivers for the corvette were banal and not perfomance enhancing waivers. Stuff that would alow the car to race but wouldnt make it any faster without them.

the bigest problem with me and the BMW is that it is a crapy road car compared to all the rest in the field, and it is alowed to race and market its car in a class where it simply doesent belong. whitch makes cars that arew mubh better then it look bad from a marketing standpoint. and witch cars are better
here is a little list.

porsche 996 gt3 rs
porsche 997 gt3 rs
ferrari 430
ferrari 458
Ford GT
Lotus Evora
Spyker
Aston martin vantage
Corvette ZR1.
if all the cars on the list have had to folow the rules in the hope that they will have an equal competition why is bmw alowed so much , when it hurts all the others.
And to top it all of they are given a huge 1.2mm restrictor break, alowing them to have the engine with the most HP

Yeah i knew this of course. I was pressing you guys to find it though. The transaxle and the engine mounting and suspension are different. The major thing with the suspension was the switch from single wishbone(unsuitable for racing) to double wishbone.

Now if the M3 road car was actually a competitor to the 911 or 458 i suspect you'd have no issue at all. But the M3 is "crap" compared to the other cars. and it doesn't look good publicity wise to see the M3 beat the 458.

I get what your hinting at and im so glad that you pointed it out to me. I think you take issue with the fact that the road M3 is not in the same league as the Porsche,Ferrari, and(questionably) Corvette. So basically it shouldn't be a GT2 car. As has been stated the road going M3 is grossly unsuitable for racing. Hence they had to make numerous modifications. I've been more on the car is legal side.....You make a good point....To the average viewer that knows nothing really about sportscars......If they were to turn on there t.v and see a BMW M3 beating a F458 italia and a porsche they might think that they should buy a BMw M3 instead of a 458 italia or porsche. And thats unfair marketing because the M3 road car isn't the M3 race car.....

For people like me and you though. We know that the M3 is much below the 458 and the 911. Thats why i couldn't understand where you were coming from. They're exploiting marketing in a Big way. But personally i don;t care who wins. As long as we see the battles that we have seen so far.

Let just both hope that no one legitamely thinks the BMW M3 is going to beat a 458 italia and 911 at their next sunday drivers club....Well im glad you cleared that up....I know you certainly don't care about who wins either but from a marketing standpoint it's really not right.

In addition i wonder who we can blame though. BMW wanted to go GT2 racing. What other car could they have used? We all no doubt want to see BMW as a manufacturer in GT2. Maybe not with the M3 though.

Heres to hopes that BMW builds a legitamte roadcar that competes with the 458 and the 911 and races it in GT2 It's a win win for BMW and us. They stop getting criticized and we get a sweet BMW M100 or whatever they'll call it.

But theoretically if BMW used a M3 GT2 that was truly heavily based on the M3 road car and it was slower than the 458 ,911,etc..., it would have gotten and even bigger restrictor break.....There's some food for thought

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

Yeah i knew this of course. I was pressing you guys to find it though. The transaxle and the engine mounting and suspension are different. The major thing with the suspension was the switch from single wishbone(unsuitable for racing) to double wishbone.

Now if the M3 road car was actually a competitor to the 911 or 458 i suspect you'd have no issue at all. But the M3 is "crap" compared to the other cars. and it doesn't look good publicity wise to see the M3 beat the 458.

I get what your hinting at and im so glad that you pointed it out to me. I think you take issue with the fact that the road M3 is not in the same league as the Porsche,Ferrari, and(questionably) Corvette. So basically it shouldn't be a GT2 car. As has been stated the road going M3 is grossly unsuitable for racing. Hence they had to make numerous modifications. I've been more on the car is legal side.....You make a good point....To the average viewer that knows nothing really about sportscars......If they were to turn on there t.v and see a BMW M3 beating a F458 italia and a porsche they might think that they should buy a BMw M3 instead of a 458 italia or porsche. And thats unfair marketing because the M3 road car isn't the M3 race car.....

For people like me and you though. We know that the M3 is much below the 458 and the 911. Thats why i couldn't understand where you were coming from. They're exploiting marketing in a Big way. But personally i don;t care who wins. As long as we see the battles that we have seen so far.

Let just both hope that no one legitamely thinks the BMW M3 is going to beat a 458 italia and 911 at their next sunday drivers club....Well im glad you cleared that up....I know you certainly don't care about who wins either but from a marketing standpoint it's really not right.

In addition i wonder who we can blame though. BMW wanted to go GT2 racing. What other car could they have used? We all no doubt want to see BMW as a manufacturer in GT2. Maybe not with the M3 though.

Heres to hopes that BMW builds a legitamte roadcar that competes with the 458 and the 911 and races it in GT2 It's a win win for BMW and us. They stop getting criticized and we get a sweet BMW M100 or whatever they'll call it.

But theoretically if BMW used a M3 GT2 that was truly heavily based on the M3 road car and it was slower than the 458 ,911,etc..., it would have gotten and even bigger restrictor break.....There's some food for thought

In summary the BMW is a shopping car the others are not........

I am surprised Ayse has not pointed this out.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by Mal

In summary the BMW is a shopping car the others are not........

I am surprised Ayse has not pointed this out.

The beemer is a Shopping Cart!


lol

[MitchZ06]

Considering its based off a 3 series coupe thats based off a 3 series sedan its definately not a purpose built sports car like the others, thus its pretty much a shopping car unlike most others competing in GTE...

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Considering its based off a 3 series coupe thats based off a 3 series sedan its definately not a purpose built sports car like the others, thus its pretty much a shopping car unlike most others competing in GTE...

Shopping Cart!!