Is the Am class a bad idea?

[tux]

I found this list of FIA WEC drivers from the last 2 seasons which shows who is classed platinum, silver, bronze. http://www.lemans.org/wpphpFichiers/...tification.pdf

Keiko Ihara who couldnt do a lap under 4 mins in an LMP2 is classed silver, the same level as nick leventis....

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Peat

A: Gentlemen drivers are what bankroll sportscar racing in the main.

B: Perazinni is hardly and 'amateur'. He has quite an impressive CV.

What we saw this year and last was an accident. The modern fascination with apportioning absolute blame is what will kill motorsport.

True.

We are to blame for this.

And, as you hint, what is Am?

Most of us here are Am, but not Gentlemen, when it comes to offering an opinion.

[Purist]

It is an unfortunate cultural shift that so much that goes wrong anymore "has to be somebody's fault". Sometimes there is reasonable blame to be doled out, and at other times, accidents just happen.

The trouble is, so much of sport anymore is driven by media and commercial interests, which fund so much of it. If you want a "successful" product as a sport, you have to appease the wider audience, and that wider audience seems to want somebody to blame when something isn't "right".

As to the topic at hand, there MUST be a balance struck. We need the teams to have funding, so having drivers who aren't the quickest is an acceptable price to pay for that. However, there are those, thankfully rather few of them, who are just too much of a hazard to be allowed to run around out on track. It would be most preferable to identify and cull those individuals from the driver pool BEFORE something really bad happens on-track.

[johntt]

The Am class is wholly necessary for many of the reasons mentioned above.

One thing I did realise this weekend was the impact that LMP2/GTE-Am has for professional drivers. It creates more opportunities for pro drivers to be paid to race.

If a rich amateur has a team and wants to be competitive (as they all do) in LMP2 he'll need to hire 2x pro drivers (1x in the case of GTE-Am).

[KA]

Originally Posted by tux

There should be a rule introduced though that says for an AM driver to compete at Le Mans they must have had say 6 races in LMS or WEC and the stewards must be satisfied they can handle traffic correctly. However driving standards in the class weren't really that bad in my opinion, very few incidents of contact between GTE cars and LMP cars.

Originally Posted by Peat

A: Gentlemen drivers are what bankroll sportscar racing in the main.

B: Perazinni is hardly and 'amateur'. He has quite an impressive CV.

What we saw this year and last was an accident. The modern fascination with apportioning absolute blame is what will kill motorsport.

As Peat suggests, a tightening-up of the level of experience needed for an 'Am' driver to get a run at Le Mans wouldn't filter out someone like Perazzini who's got no shortage of mileage in ACO races under his belt- and I don't recall him having much of a history of being a hazard in traffic before this weekend?.
Basically, it comes down to the fact that when you've got cars with a big performance differential on the same track, as we have with LMPs and GTs, and cars lapping each other, no matter what you do to increase safety, occasionally it will all go wrong and stuff will happen...

I see no problem with making sure that rookies at Le Mans have got a minimum amount of ELMS/ALMS/WEC track time behind them before they get a start at Le Mans, and have proven they're both capable of racing at this level without wandering around the track getting in the way of faster cars, and can turn in a laptime that isn't light years off the pace, but beyond that I really don't see what more can be done, other than looking at the driver grading system to iron out some of the more obvious eccentricities in it (like the Leventis/Ihara comparison tux mentioned), and maybe weeding out any repeat offenders and telling them they won't be accepted for Le Mans in future unless they can prove in other ACO races that they've got their act together in traffic

[urdragon]

Yes for this type of competitions, only the best drivers should be allowed, if teams cannot subsist without them then let Le mans be only for big brands , there is no use of stupidlly in the world of I+D.

[Peat]

*facepalm*

[urdragon]

Okay, let everything as it is if U prefer..

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by Peat

A: Gentlemen drivers are what bankroll sportscar racing in the main.

B: Perazinni is hardly and 'amateur'. He has quite an impressive CV.

What we saw this year and last was an accident. The modern fascination with apportioning absolute blame is what will kill motorsport.

Well he has a AM next to his name and presummable a AM sticker on the back bumper? But I guess they're fairly had to spot at 200mph!

He's an 'Amatuer' IMHO...Because he didn't use his mirrors!

As Johnny Molem said on Eurosport...He himself has been an LMP and a GT. And as a GT he has been passed a Million times at that point...a GT can and should turn in later and let the LMPs through!

In the Drivers briefing the GT's are told to stay over to the left side on the Mulsanne.

Parazini hit the Toyota so hard he knocked it's left rear wheel clean off!

'Amatuers' are part of the 24 Hours of LeMans tradition...but they need a Special Identity Light' on the rear, so faster cars (PRO drivers) can identify them!

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Rennen

'Amatuers' are part of the 24 Hours of LeMans tradition...but they need a Special Identity Light' on the rear, so faster cars (PRO drivers) can identify them!

That might not work, since each Am car is allowed one Gold or Platinum driver, and when that driver is in the car, the car should regularly behave more like the LMP1 drivers expect (so they don't need warning when that driver is in the car).

EDIT: In any case, please wish Ant a speedy recovery from all of us here. Nobody likes to see such an incident end up with a driver in hospital.

[Purist]

The reliability of the Driver ID system has been pretty darn good. It should be perfectly possible to have the "warning" light only come on while the helmet plug of the "Am" driver is in, and go back off when the "Pro" driver gets in.

[Peat]

Yep. Not a bad idea.

[The Badger]

One simple way that may help , the Am drivers need to have experiance with multiclass series .

[Peat]

That's difficult because there is not alot of options to race GT's alongside superfast works proto's.

[Thaw Daggerslash]

Originally Posted by Peat

That's difficult because there is not alot of options to race GT's alongside superfast works proto's.

So basically it is an accident waiting to happen, effectively.

I remember last year when Dumas was very open and critical about Am drivers and the risks prototype drivers have to take in traffic. It doesn't help that visibility is so poor in a coupe prototype.

I think it is something the ACO and FIA need to look closely at, but it is hard to know what the solution is.

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by The Badger

One simple way that may help , the Am drivers need to have experiance with multiclass series .

This is an excellent suggestion. If someone has a reasonable amount of experience (the experience level could be determined by the ACO) in say either the ELMS, ALMS, Asian LM or say Japanese Super GT where you are dealing with multiclass racing where you need to learn to pass slower cars and/or learn to stay out of the way of faster cars one could obtain clearance to race at Le Mans as an amateur in whatever class you have appropriate experience in. Experience and incidents could be evaluated by a board and appropriate permissions granted.

DK

[Peat]

Interesting quote from Martin Brundle when questioned over driving standards during the race (on Radio Le Mans race pt3 podcast about 1hr45 in):

"Well, it's always the same at Le Mans. It's like riding a motorbike on the road, you have to assume that everyone's going to run into you because eventually someone will and you have to be able to see it coming. The problem as always is that you don't know who is in each car. You start to get a feel for a car whether it's sensible or not and then of course it gets a different driver in it at the next pitstop and it's all over the show. You can steam into a corner like Tetre Rouge and find them braking at the apex when you're commited on the throttle through the exit. You can't leglislate for that, you can only react but that's Le Mans. You get some 'weekend warriors' and you get some of the finest drivers in the world and you have to try and stay out of each other's way. It's all part of the challenge."

Pretty much my view to the tee. Perhaps Rennen's suggestion would be widely welcomed?

[Dead-Eye]

I still think the first step needs to be to tell the slower drivers that they need to pay attention to what's going on too. Not "throw away your mirrors and drive your line as if there were no cars around you", as it's effectively done now.

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

That might not work, since each Am car is allowed one Gold or Platinum driver, and when that driver is in the car, the car should regularly behave more like the LMP1 drivers expect (so they don't need warning when that driver is in the car).

EDIT: In any case, please wish Ant a speedy recovery from all of us here. Nobody likes to see such an incident end up with a driver in hospital.

I was thinking of a simple Switch the the driver or maybe the Team throws when the AM is aboard a nice Bright Green or Yellow Light?

By the way, did you guys know that GT drivers are suposed to use their direction turn indicators to let the Prototypes know they've seen them?...but Ant says few comply!

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

That might not work, since each Am car is allowed one Gold or Platinum driver, and when that driver is in the car, the car should regularly behave more like the LMP1 drivers expect (so they don't need warning when that driver is in the car).

EDIT: In any case, please wish Ant a speedy recovery from all of us here. Nobody likes to see such an incident end up with a driver in hospital.

Ant says thanks, See his twitter page (via his web page if you're not into Twittering!) www.anthonydavidson.com
We were hoping to see him demo the Toyota at the Goodwood Festival. Doh!

[Purist]

Part of the trouble with the indicators is also that some drivers will use them to signal which way they themselves are going, while others use them to signal which side they want the LMP to pass them on. So, if there is a system, drivers need to be using it, and it also needs to be uniform to minimize confusion/mistakes.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Purist

Part of the trouble with the indicators is also that some drivers will use them to signal which way they themselves are going, while others use them to signal which side they want the LMP to pass them on. So, if there is a system, drivers need to be using it, and it also needs to be uniform to minimize confusion/mistakes.

That has an easy solution: enforce a standars. Which should be signalling where you are driving. If you turn on the left signal, the driver will move left.

[Rennen]

Many years ago (1973) I was driving to the Spanish Grand Prix and I remember Spanish Lorries had a Green light which they could turn on to advise following cars that it was safe to overtake them...it worked really well especially as I was driving a right hand drive car. But I can see the dangers, and maybe that's why the idea was fazed out!

A neighbour has just shown me a Daily Newspaper in which Parazzini is quoted as saying "I saw him coming, but it is impossible to overtake there"!!!

I recall Johnny Mowlem answering the EuroSport commentators question..."Was Davidson right to overtake there?"...Johnny replied..."In GT I've been overtaken there a million times" He also added..."A GT can take a wider line there"

[chernaudi]

That is a problem with multi-class racing, in that each driver isn't the same and it's sort of a crapshoot. McNish in the run to the esses last year and in the Porsche Curves this year probably made successful passes seemingly hundreds of times, but it's still a calculated risk, and with any calculated risk, there's always a chance, no matter how small, that things won't go your way, and Allan rolled snake eyes in those two instances out of many that went as planned for him.

The deal with Ant is just the same--Davidson probably has made many successful overtakes in that area of the race track, and that was one that went bad for him because of an other driver's mistake.

The problem is a double edged sword--if we get rid of all the pro-am/semi-pro drivers, there's basically no chance in hell we'll get 55 classified cars on the LM grid, but if we keep them the chances of this stuff happening goes up. But I do believe that there should be certain, enforceable standards. I believe that the Rob Kauffman deal last year led to the ACO recommending--but not making mandatory--the idea of using the indicator blinkers to show an LMP car or a faster GT car the safest/preferred overtaking line.

I also think that if properly implemented that the elder Davidson's idea of using some indicator such as a light or something like that to indicate when the pro-am driver is in the GT-Am or LMP2 cars could be a help. One of the issues that was heavily talked about on Speed's LM coverage is that the LMP1/2 drivers get into a rhythm, but they don't know who they're dealing with because of driver changes and individual driver characteristics. The issue here might be with implementation--the only way I can see it working is with the driver ID system, but it might very well be workable.

But with the pro-am drivers, I'm afraid that they're here to stay--sportscar racing, and most racing in general, had it's origins with rich dudes who bought cars and raced them. Even F1/Grand Prix and even (to an extent) NASCAR started out that way. Of course, racing "professionalized" when these wealthy dudes stepped aside and paid professional drivers to race in their place, and we got the idea of the professional privateer team out of that. I'm not saying that pro-am drivers need to be banned, but I do wish that the standards of experience and performance were a little tighter sometimes.

Also, we have to look at this from the point of a common thread--the Ferrari 458. I can never remember a GT car that's gotten run into by faster cars at such a frequent rate, and with Allan's offs and Ant's spectacular--and unexpected--ride, they involved F458s. I know that visibility out of the closed cars isn't very good, but the 458 seems to have horrible visibility in it's own right, too. I mean, visibility out of the back has to be almost as bad as that of a Lamborghini Countach, a car that was famous, or rather, infamous, for it's drivers having to sit on the sill to parallel park or reverse out of a drive.

Last year, Anthony Beltosie said that he didn't see Allan until it was too late to hang out wide--you can see in the replay that the Ferrari did start to ease into a turn, but Allan was down there. Yes, it can be argued that Allan got racy to early with the #1 Audi, but again, it was one of those passes that was made without error many times before, too.

Allan also spun himself out this year in the Porsche Curves--where Fassler was damn lucky not to hit anything when he lost it by himself in the middle of the night--ironically trying to pass that same Luxury Racing 458. It's driver said that he saw the Audi, but wasn't sure on where it wanted to pass. Again, Mr. Davidson's and the ACO's suggestion of the indicator blinker possibly would've helped, considering that Allan was racing the #1 Audi for the lead at the time with about 2.5 hours to go, and it was crunch time.

As for Ant, what happened when that Ferrari cut into him was sort of inexcusable. In a few years past, the fact that an LMP couldn't make the pass there might have been a legit excuse, but with the grip and handling that they have now, LMPs can pass in areas long thought to be impossible now. Even more inexcusable was the fact that the Ferrari driver saw Davidson, and should've known that Ant could pass there.

I don't think that it's just one factor that's causing these accidents, since two of the Ferrari GT deals involved pro drivers driving the 458s. I think that it's the slowing of the LMPs' top speed, the GT cars getting faster on the top-end, the LMP's cornering and braking abilities, the fact that these races are now a bunch of sprint races occurring in a 24 hour event, and visibility issues with the closed LMPs and some of the GT cars all combining at times into a perfect storm. Add in some pro-am drivers who probably shouldn't be on track, and you'll get the occasional collision.

And does anyone know if Ant will be up to his duties as commentator for Sky's F1 coverage this weekend? I guess that's up to when he can be released from observation at the hospital and what his restrictions may be, but I can see Anthony being pretty eager to get back to work. I certainly know that he probably won't be back into his job as Mercedes-Benz AMG GP test driver--those things give me back aches just thinking about sitting in one--for a couple of months probably, which with the in-season test restrictions doesn't mean much. But it may have an impact on if AD will be back in a Toyota, since they only have one car entered for the remaining races (maybe in part by default--unless the tub was salvaged from the #8 Toyota). But Silverstone is 2 months+2 weeks away, and that was the prognosis that Anthony was given--2-3 months for the injury to completely heal in his case, so that splits the difference. I hope that Ant remains in good spirits (not hard based on some of the dry humor he's given about what happened per his Twitter comments), and I hope that he'll be back involved in motorsport soon, be it as a driver or a media member.

[Articus]

the 458 while devilishly quick is a nightmare to try to look in the mirrors or keep any kind of awareness of faster cars behind you.

I think it has something to do with the very low seating position of the car and the tiny wing mirrors they have installed. I don't trust that a rear view camera was installed in each Ferrari given they're notorious electronic issues...