Jenson v Lewis what is the final verdict

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by garcon

Talking of quali performances, they shouldn't be used as a comparison in their own right in my view (the old adage "you don't win any points on Saturday"), but they have been influential. If Button's Saturday performances hadn't been so utterly woeful all season he could have mounted a title challenge. Week after week his race was fatally compromised by a poor grid slot.

But is it Button's qualities in the race that makes him slow in qualifying? Perhaps he can never really have both, unless the car is dominant?

Don't agree on the Hamilton win or bust thing either, apart from 2011 of course. 2010 and 2012 have been fabulously consistent years for him but don't seem to get that recognition because he piled into Massa at Monza once.

[chillibowl]

ideally i would take both as well. as Bella mentioned, truly two contrasting styles that worked well together.....just unfortunate that they ran into the RB juggernaut.

but if i had to give an advantage it would go to Button who challenged and reversed my assumptions of him over the last 3 years which was positively surprising. not quite quantifiable in 'stats land', as its a personal feeling, but to give credit where credit is due, JB did more to alter my expectations than LH whom i rate very highly.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

On balance I doubt McLaren will miss Lewis as much as Lewis will miss McLaren, because Jenson, who is well known for getting a team "on side" will, I feel, up his game next year.

I totally agree.

[spider]

To me Button is the ultimate number two - he's great with PR, super in races where everyone loses their heads, is a great barometer of where the car is in terms of performance.

I fully expect Perez to be the faster of the two, as Hamilton was comfortably, but he will amass an impressive points total. If the car's capable, he will keep the guy's in the title hunt honest.

He's done incredibly well against Lewis, where Heikki got destroyed, Jenson has somehow taken over the team and has incredibly outlived him at the team.

Lewis going to Mercedes is a brilliant move for him - he'll have more freedom (and personal time, which he clearly desires), will undoubtedly be far faster than Nico, and be driven-on with RB and co.

Jenson will continue to thrive in the right conditions, when the car's to his liking and Perez will have been hired to be the raw pace, and to wrestle the car into the right positions regardless of how the car's handling.

So, Lewis is clearly the faster of the two in the dry - one of the three clearly super-quick guys on the grid (SV, FA and LH), but Jenson, in the slippery conditions was the quicker and more consistent.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

For me, Hamilton wins hands down if you want your driver to take on the role and image of a dare devil fighter plane pilot. He'll get all of the attention. Button is the guy flying the precision night time bombing mission behind enemy lines. Both doing a similar job, but in different ways.

I liked this analogy as well, nice one Scott...

There is very little, if anything between these two guys...

[Mr V]

Over the last 3 season's we've seen the flamboyance and excitement of Lewis, he looks so quick and dedicated then the camera pan's out........

and Jenson is just behind him!

Knowlesy mentions Lewis's "blip" last year, and as a fan (knowlesy, not me) i can understand why he'd dismiss it, but, to me, you have to count that towards to final outcome. If he was a footballer, he'd have been benched!

This season, Lewis has, without doubt had more bad luck, (although Jen's had the lions share last year) but we also see episodes like Korea and maybe even Hockenheim. That bit of astro turf hanging off his car can be put down to bad luck, but he was the only one who ended up with it attached to his car. The others seemed to have managed to miss it. Hochenheim also, for sure, bad luck that he got a puncture, but the 20 odd others went through it and managed to avoid it.

[W.A Trichlorostyrene]

Originally Posted by Kevin Cooke

Ok so back at the end of 2009 when JB decided to join McLaren all the pundits said, mad, crazy, he'll be shown up, destroyed.

When you look at where Mercedes is right now, he made a genius decision...

Walking away from a team for which you won your first championship might sound completely absurd in most cases, but in that one, it was the perfect move. Kudos to him.

[BertMk2]

Hamilton has had more of the mechanical problems - but how much of that is down to his more aggressive style? Some drivers are harder on cars than others - Jenson is always touted for his 'smooth style' whilst Lewis is 'aggressive' - does that contribute to the reliability factor?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Marbot

With regard to having vital input into next seasons car:

"When you're team-mates with Lewis you share the direction of the car, if you like. Whereas now, with Lewis leaving, I have a couple of months to really direct the team into what I would like with the car before Checo (Pérez) arrives."


http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2...ortant-for-me/

On reflection, and bearing in mind that McLaren was Hamilton's team, Button has done an outstanding job.

This is the point that makes Button's retention at McLaren really interesting.
Lewis is clearly faster in qualifying with an imperfect car, or the car that McLaren produced, but, how fast will Jenson be with a car that is built round him?

Will they get it right between them, Jenson and McLaren?

McLaren were clearly very impressed with Jenson's input!

Quali 14 - 43 in Hamilton's favour.

[JHamilton]

And on that point, I think McLaren will be better as a team focusing on Jenson. There certainly will be less drama and maybe more speed to go with it. Jenson spent a large portion of his career at the back of grids and teetering on losing his ride. Because of this I believe he appreciates and values the opportunity he has right now. I'm not sure the same is true for Hamilton.

[W.A Trichlorostyrene]

Originally Posted by wnut

Quali 14 - 43 in Hamilton's favour.

To me it also shows that qualifying doesn't have the importance it once had, with the Pirellis, and DRS making overtaking easier.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by W.A Trichlorostyrene

To me it also shows that qualifying doesn't have the importance it once had, with the Pirellis, and DRS making overtaking easier.

Good point!

With the emphasis now on race long pace! Not get in front and block!

[luke g28]

Nobody would be saying the Mclaren was the quickest car this year if Hamilton wasnt driving it.

Hamilton also appears better at pushing an imperfect car around and getting the lap time out of it, whereas button needs it just right.

Im a lewis fan but I think thats a fairly pragmatic view.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by wnut

This is the point that makes Button's retention at McLaren really interesting.
Lewis is clearly faster in qualifying with an imperfect car, or the car that McLaren produced, but, how fast will Jenson be with a car that is built round him?

About as fast as he is now I would imagine. After all, he said at the start of the season that the car was the closest to his driving style it had ever been at McLaren.

Really, I would say he is dependent on the tyres suiting him.

[Knowlesy]

The list of mechanical failures is interesting. Just mechanical failures, no rogue drivers crashing into the side of our intrepid Brits (Vettel on Button, Maldonado/Hulkenberg on Lewis) or pit errors (I haven't got all evening, this is McLaren). Practice/qualifying mechanical failures I couldn't care less about (i.e. I can't remember them off the top of my head).

2010

Spain: Hamilton wheel bearing failure a lap from the flag, running second. Jenson running sixth.
Monaco: Button engine failure through team error, difficult to conclude really as it happened right at the start. Hamilton running fifth, Jenson eighth.
Hungary: Hamilton gearbox failure, running fourth. Button running ninth.
Japan: Hamilton loss of gears, running fourth whilst Button fifth. The two swap places as a result.

2011
Britain: Button wheel nut loose. Arguably pit error, but caused retirement. Hamilton ahead of Button.
Germany: Button hydraulics failure, running sixth. Lewis leading.
Brazil: Hamilton gearbox failure, running sixth. Button running third.

2012
Bahrain: Button puncture, ahead of Hamilton. Engine failure whilst behind Hamilton.
Germany: Hamilton puncture behind Button, very early in race though.
Italy: Button fuel pressure fault, running third whilst Hamilton leading.
Singapore: Hamilton gearbox failure, leading. Button in third.
Korea: Hamilton suspension fault, Button retired from behind Hamilton.
Abu Dhabi: Hamilton fuel pressure fault whilst leading, Button running fifth.

Of Hamilton's eight mechanical failures five came whilst running ahead of Button (and a sixth, India 2012, would undoubtedly have seen him drop behind Button later in the race). Five cost a podium place and further probable podiums at Hungary 2010 and Korea 2012.

Of Button's five mechanical failures, he was running behind Hamilton in four of them. I would probably argue, however, that Jenson would have finished ahead of Hamilton in Britain 2011 in the end.

So Hamilton has definitely had the worst of the reliability, both in the amount of times he has suffered from it and, crucially, the timing of it. He has lost vast chunks of points to Button as a result and several notches in the outraced table. It isn't of course totally black and white, but it gives us a fair idea of how things panned out. I don't think you can just discount these things personally, but these things even themselves out we are told.

Irrelevant little thing here; I was looking through Autocourse 2011 this morning and the points table caught my eye. Hamilton scored 227 points. This season just gone, in which he has been vastly superior? 190 points! It would seem you can't read too much into points totals. I must admit that was a shock to me, I am still dumbfounded! And there was one less race in 2011.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

This season just gone, in which he has been vastly superior? 190 points!

That's F1! In a season where you are driving at your best, and arguably better than your team mate, things go wrong. Perhaps he should be further ahead in the points than Button? But close to Alonso and Vettel? Probably not. 90 points didn't go missing, even if you count all of the pit stop errors and mechanical failures, etc. Vettel and Alonso also had their 'failures' to take into account. Makes you wonder where all of the points actually went, particularly as Raikkonen also finished 17 points ahead of Hamilton in a car that wasn't even in the same ball park.

Button, I hope, will be making certain that the same failures that happened this season will not happen again next season. I remember that Button lost his temper with Honda for making 'Grenades' at the beginning of one season a while back (2005 I think), when 'Ant' was his team mate.

"Engineering an engine to last three laps is not difficult," he said. "It's (about) the whole race."

They got that message. Let's hope he gives McLaren a similar one.

Pirelli are also providing tyres that warm up quicker for next season, so that's good.

No doubt Hamilton will be making similar requests at Mercedes?

[MikeManNZ]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

You'd have to discount mechanical failures if you want to be objective.

I am not so sure.

A mechanically sympathetic driver is able to get more finishes out of a car with borderline reliability.

If the car is generally bulletproof then it can be the case maybe but I do not believe that something a complex and out on the edge as an F1 car can be called bulletproof.

There was a European driver who came down to NZ to race Formula Atlantic back in the day, he used more consumables (dog rings etc.) in gearboxes than the rest of the 20 car field combined, mind you his clutch lasted the whole season as he used it twice a session, once at the start and once pulling into the pits

At the end of the day the drivers style can and will affect reliability and is IMHO a big difference between Lewis and Jenson, and I am a Lewis fan

[Peter Mallett]

Point taken, but then, as indeed you have done, you get into an area that neither driver can manage. Although your story about the FA driver may have some relevance, he may still have finished all his races.

Knowlesy points to relative positions prior to the failure, so what? Ultimately only the final standings can tell us what or how, the drivers did.

Agreed subjectivity arises in terms of one's favourite driver, but again, that has no relevance to the question. For me the difference between each driver is so small as to be irrelevant.

Next year with two different team mates, will be interesting.

[MikeManNZ]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Point taken, but then, as indeed you have done, you get into an area that neither driver can manage. Although your story about the FA driver may have some relevance, he may still have finished all his races.

Knowlesy points to relative positions prior to the failure, so what? Ultimately only the final standings can tell us what or how, the drivers did.

Agreed subjectivity arises in terms of one's favourite driver, but again, that has no relevance to the question. For me the difference between each driver is so small as to be irrelevant.

Next year with two different team mates, will be interesting.

I do understand, I guess my point was different driving styles can have different impact on the car and a driver who is easier on equipment will finish more races if the gear is out on the ragged edge.

As for the FA driver I think he DNF'ed one race with a broken box, and with a BDA FA motor on a FT200 it was not torque

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

The list of mechanical failures is interesting. Just mechanical failures, no rogue drivers crashing into the side of our intrepid Brits (Vettel on Button, Maldonado/Hulkenberg on Lewis) or pit errors (I haven't got all evening, this is McLaren). Practice/qualifying mechanical failures I couldn't care less about (i.e. I can't remember them off the top of my head).

2010

Spain: Hamilton wheel bearing failure a lap from the flag, running second. Jenson running sixth.
Monaco: Button engine failure through team error, difficult to conclude really as it happened right at the start. Hamilton running fifth, Jenson eighth.
Hungary: Hamilton gearbox failure, running fourth. Button running ninth.
Japan: Hamilton loss of gears, running fourth whilst Button fifth. The two swap places as a result.

2011
Britain: Button wheel nut loose. Arguably pit error, but caused retirement. Hamilton ahead of Button.
Germany: Button hydraulics failure, running sixth. Lewis leading.
Brazil: Hamilton gearbox failure, running sixth. Button running third.

2012
Bahrain: Button puncture, ahead of Hamilton. Engine failure whilst behind Hamilton.
Germany: Hamilton puncture behind Button, very early in race though.
Italy: Button fuel pressure fault, running third whilst Hamilton leading.
Singapore: Hamilton gearbox failure, leading. Button in third.
Korea: Hamilton suspension fault, Button retired from behind Hamilton.
Abu Dhabi: Hamilton fuel pressure fault whilst leading, Button running fifth.

Good post. I was hoping someone would analyse the retirements.

It would be interesting to work out, approximately, where the drivers would have likely finished without any problems (being it technical, accidents, or non-dnf incidents). Same with Vettel and Alonso this year - although both their retirements were pretty clear about where they would have finished. Vettel a win and 5th/6th, Alonso a 2nd and possibly a 3rd at best.

[Knowlesy]

I disagree that the final points is representative.

One driver could have his best year whilst there is little strong opposition and rack up loads of free points. Another could have his best year, beating his teammate consistently, whilst he car isn't even good enough to run in the points. You have to look into it deeper than an arbitrary points system. Hamilton's 2011 season is a case in point, half the season he was genuinely awful yet still scored 37 more points than he did in an almost flawless 2012 campaign.

Whatever, I doubt we will ever agree. I am just sad that the two won't be driving together again, although the Mercedes move adds interest.

[Oldtony]

IMO Lewis Faster Jenson Smarter!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

I disagree that the final points is representative.

Well unless I miss my guess they are racing for points, ergo, whether they look good in a gold thong, or can run 100m faster than that bloke in the olympics is neither here, nor there. So points must be the only benchmark.

Originally Posted by Oldtony

IMO Lewis Faster Jenson Smarter!

[spider]

If we're honest neither have come out of their partnership damaged at all - Lewis has maintained his reputation as one of the very fastest men on the grid, while Jenson has held his own against him and come away with a solid reputation as THE man to put your money on in drizzly conditions...

[Marbot]

At least JB probably didn't have this to put up with.

"I have never wanted to make a big deal about it, but it would have been nice to just once had the new parts on my car, particularly after we lost the chance of winning the championship."

"Every time this season, when Hamilton and I are in the third part of qualifying, I had to do it with more fuel. If you take into account the quantities of fuel, I would have had pole position several times."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mot...t-McLaren.html

hmmm.