Ferrari consider appealling Vettel's Championship

[Steelepunk]

Would damage the sport if Ferrari made a big deal about this. Don't think anyone really would want to see a new Champion named a week after a race has concluded.

[Peter Mallett]

Art 169 they have until 30 Nov to protest.

[Salamus]

Honestly, once a race is over and all cars/drivers checked, the results should be set in stone. If you want to get it right, do it during the race. You don't see football teams appealing about an offside that was missed during the match. Why should we let teams appeal. It was the responsibility of the race officials to fix the potential problem DURING the race.

[TrueBlueFlyer]

I don't know how it was on the other broadcasts, but on SPEED it was very clearly mentioned that Ferrari has complained to race control that there was a possible pass under yellow. Race control reviewed the footage during the race, and dismissed it, taking no action.

Obviously Ferrari isn't satisfied with that ruling.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Given it was a Toro Rosso he was passing it probably slammed on the brakes to wave Vettel past and there was nothing the young German could do but overtake the stricken Red Bull feeder.

This genuinely cracked me up. Thats funny mate

Originally Posted by p-matt

Seems clear from the video that he did overtake under yellows so it will be interesting to see what happens

Does it? I was under the impression that a flashing yellow was slippery surface (same as a red/yellow flag), a constant lit yellow was no overtaking (same as a yellow flag?).

The board was flashing yellow. Plus there was a green in there for good measure.

[Peat]

Chill yer pants guys. Nothing's going to happen, it's just part of the pantomime.

A) He passed a green flag before the overtake.

B) I am confident from the footage that the TR's telemetry will show that Vergne/Ric lifted to let him passed.

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I was under the impression that a flashing yellow was slippery surface (same as a red/yellow flag), a constant lit yellow was no overtaking (same as a yellow flag?).

Other way around, steady yellow panel is the change of surface "flag", flashing yellow is a waved yellow flag.

There are NO stationary yellow flags in the FIA F1 flag regulations. In normal (UK) racing where a stationary yellow flag would be displayed a waved yellow is displayed. Where a (UK) waved yellow would be displayed this is done with double waved yellows.

[numbersix]

Beware of armchair marshalling.

Forget the lights, the onboard, everything. The flag marshal is the sole decider. He/she reacts instantly to changing track situations. Lights fail/lag. If there is a green flag next to a Christmas tree of flashing yellows - the flag holds sway.

At Silverstone at least, there are three Observers/Post Chiefs covering the sector. If any one of them (indeed any team member in that sector) see a transgression of any kind, it's reported to race control on the radio. This is followed up by a written report.

If any of the people on the post(s) covering the supposed Vettel incident had seen anything, race control would know about it there and then.

Also, Ferrari or anyone else cannot "protest" a yellow flag infringement. They can point it out, certainly. But if it wasn't reported at the time by the Observer/Post Chief or Flag in that sector, then it's highly unlikely anything will be done post-race.

Glorious that cameras and on-board footage are, they will never replace the eyes and ears of time-served marshals who see this sort of thing, often within stepping distance of the track, week in, week out.

[wolfhound]

I suspect Ferrari would have had somebody watching Vettels on board camera live through the race plus any other cars that might be relevant.

[TrapezeArtist]

I fear this is turning into "trial by internet". I notice that Autosport has nothing to say on the matter at all.

The problem we have is that we are all viewing this on fuzzy youtube videos. It's hard enough to see the lights, and impossible to see the flags. Yet it is the flags that take precedence should there be a discrepancy.

I think the most important conclusion is that the FIA need to tighten up their procedure for next year, so that there can be less opportunity for ambiguity. We've just had the best Formula One season ever: let's just be thankful for that.

[Adam43]

This is similar to 2002 Indy. Prepare for irrational arguments!

A few, unresearched, comments.
I'm surprised that there isn't a cut-off for investigations/decisions of this nature.
The flag rules are, as MagnetOn points outs, different in F1 to other series and the UK Blue Book.
Isn't the question not whether he was in the green, rather whether he was into the next yellow?

[grumpyf14d]

Trail by internet or armchairing is but a part of what a forum is all about. Most of us don't have the expertise nor are part of the decisional process in determining the outcome of any event but that should not keep folks from having a friendly discussion about the events that tweek their fancy.

As one who is not a Marshall nor a driver I learn alot through the discussions but always know that opinions don't always equate to ground truth. Which brings me to a question;

does race control have the ability to make a section of track yellow or are the Marshalls in total control of the track conditions through the flag system? If a Marshall has missed something can Race control take charge remotely through the status boards of the condition of the track at a particular section?

What is the purpose of the status boards and if a board is half way between two flag stations could the board denote the beginning of a yellow flag zone?

[mini1400]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

If one reads the article mentioned above there is a marshals post on the left after the third corner that is not visible from the on board camera. This post was displaying a green flag on the previous lap according to Andrew Benson.

THe marshal's post is visible on the onboad camera, and is displaying a green flag (see 9 seconds in) - pass is legal...

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I'm surprised that there isn't a cut-off for investigations/decisions of this nature.

There is a cut off - tomorrow, 30th Nov. Although I suspect that we will never hear the end of this...

I cannot see the FIA wanting to change the WDC at this late stage.

The youtube videos have been taken down now.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by steve_r

There is a cut off - tomorrow, 30th Nov. Although I suspect that we will never hear the end of this...

Thanks, I wasn't aware. Is this a five days after thing?

I cannot see the FIA wanting to change the WDC at this late stage.

I know what you are saying, but should tat matter?

The youtube videos have been taken down now.

i'm surprised they lasted so long!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by mini1400

THe marshal's post is visible on the onboad camera, and is displaying a green flag (see 9 seconds in) - pass is legal...

Agreed, hopefully the end of the matter!

Also hopefully nobody at the FIA has a gun pointed directly at his foot and insists on pulling the trigger at Ferrari's behest!

[Aysedasi]

Just by the by, it is very easy to download and save a YouTube video.....

[wnut]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

I fear this is turning into "trial by internet". I notice that Autosport has nothing to say on the matter at all.

The problem we have is that we are all viewing this on fuzzy youtube videos. It's hard enough to see the lights, and impossible to see the flags. Yet it is the flags that take precedence should there be a discrepancy.

I think the most important conclusion is that the FIA need to tighten up their procedure for next year, so that there can be less opportunity for ambiguity. We've just had the best Formula One season ever: let's just be thankful for that.

In all honesty if there is a discrepancy, then it should always be determined in the driver's favour. He is doing 200mph and has a millisecond to make a decision. If the stewards of the meeting don't find a fault during the meeting then it should just rest. As per the soccer analysis above.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

I fear this is turning into "trial by internet". I notice that Autosport has nothing to say on the matter at all.

That's not at all a surprise. They didn't even report the latest Bernie lawsuit.

Autosport wouldn't risk upsetting it's advertisers, exhibitors or contacts. It's part of the establishment now which is why it's readership is dwindling annually and you need to go to places like this to find out what's really going on.

It's not "trial by Internet" more like "discussion by Internet" which is a good thing imho.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

That's not at all a surprise. They didn't even report the latest Bernie lawsuit.

Autosport wouldn't risk upsetting it's advertisers, exhibitors or contacts. It's part of the establishment now which is why it's readership is dwindling annually and you need to go to places like this to find out what's really going on.

It's not "trial by Internet" more like "discussion by Internet" which is a good thing imho.

More like they report facts rather than simple rumour - FIA confirms no case to answer in regard to that pass: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104644

[tristancliffe]

Originally Posted by mini1400

THe marshal's post is visible on the onboad camera, and is displaying a green flag (see 9 seconds in) - pass is legal...

Exactly.

The green flag is easily seen on the onboard footage, so there are no grounds for any protest.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Thanks, I wasn't aware. Is this a five days after thing?

Interestingly as I understand it, it refers to the season. Any information that challenges a race result or stewards decision during the particular race, whether the first, fourth or last, can be appealed before midnight on 30th November.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Interestingly as I understand it, it refers to the season. Any information that challenges a race result or stewards decision during the particular race, whether the first, fourth or last, can be appealed before midnight on 30th November.

So a November 30th thing. Well you learn something new.

Sniff is running another breaking story that Ferrari will challenge Christmas.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

Exactly.

The green flag is easily seen on the onboard footage, so there are no grounds for any protest.

Isn't it about the yellow half way down the straight after the green?
sky did a good analysis. Yellow, yellow, yellow, green, yellow IIRC.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

That's not at all a surprise. They didn't even report the latest Bernie lawsuit.

Autosport wouldn't risk upsetting it's advertisers, exhibitors or contacts. It's part of the establishment now which is why it's readership is dwindling annually and you need to go to places like this to find out what's really going on.

Or is it just that this broke on a Thursday morning and they were a bit tardy? Rest day for Autosport. It is up now.