Juan Pablo Montoya - "The Great Columbian Hype"

[Peter Mallett]

Just thought of another "retirement" story.

Goes back to Brooklands in 1930. The MG factory fielded a magnificent beast known as an 18/100. They entered the Double Twelve race but after two hours it was out. The reason was a "Carburretor butterfly jamming the valve gear". Except that when they dismantled the engine the crankshaft was blue and there were no bearings to be seen anywhere.

[Damon]

Thanks for your breath of fresh air Lee. Someone putting across the facts (and as yet unchallenged).

People, this is Juan's second year in F1, take a look at the tapes from 1992/93 to see how Sir crash-a-lot Schumacher faired. Juan Pablo needs to gain experence in the same way Schumacher and even Senna did. Both had a few more crashes than can be expected in their early days but it is only by testing and finding the limits that made them as good as they became. JPM is doing the same.

[freud]

Yeah, I think some people just love bashing JPM for no reason whatsoever. It alright, I can understand them... not everyone is born with an IQ above 100...

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
Two things then. One; things aren't always black and white especially in motorsport and two; don't you think that throwing your car over gravel traps, high kerbs etc. are driver controlled incidents that may just have a bearing on engine, transmission and suspension failures.

I'd say that a car so fragile that it can't put up with a driver using all his talent to try and close a huge gap in performance is the ultimate technical failure!

If we're being totally honest here, the only thing I'd criticize Juan for is not being able to accept the FW24's natural tendancy to understeer. He tries to set the car up loose, and it costs him in race trim.

He'll have preference on development of the FW25, so expect a short-wheelbase car with tons of front downforce and a lot of oversteer. A car like that should finally allow him to take the fight to Schumacher.

[I Ate Yoko Ono]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta



He'll have preference on development of the FW25, so expect a short-wheelbase car with tons of front downforce and a lot of oversteer. A car like that should finally allow him to take the fight to Schumacher.

I agree and what's more in that situation I would expect to see the gap to Ralf Schumacher widen further in JPM's favour.

[Mania]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta


Melbourne: Crappy Michelin tires kill Juan's race after the battle of the year with Schumacher. More than proved he can hold his own with TGF.

Rubbish. All he did was pass Schumacher when Schumacher ran wide...Schumacher pulled of a brilliant pass and ran away with the race while Kimi on the same Michelin tyres driving his first race for Mclaren nearly got ahead of Pablo due to his superior racer pace.

Malaysia: Ralf gets lucky when TGF takes off his front win against Juan's tire, and the marshalls make the dumbest call anyone's seen in decades by penalising Juan, who's pace for the remainded of the race would exceed Ralf's, though the deficicit was impossible to make up.

Sorry to say..thats the most opinionated (and thats being as polite as possible) post Ive ever seen. One word describes that rant...Rubbish.

Brazil: Juan loses his front wing against Schumi's rear tires. It happens... Cowardly Ralf gives his brother the win without a fight.

Another moronic post..gee Lee you`re on song today. Here's a better description of what happened..Pablo threw away the race when he made ANOTHER one of his regular mistakes and let Schumacher pass..then he ran into the back of Schumacher...lost his wing..spent a bunch of laps following Button and couldnt get by him...then went on to cry in the press release blaming Schumacher..a claim that his one team boss Patrick Head and Gerhard Berger scoffed at..and told him that he had no one to blame but himself. Oh, and during all that...Ralf went on to finish a solid 2nd and take home 6 points.

Imola: Meet the F2002. If you missed it, you'll see it again when it laps you in a few minutes. Juan's championship hopes are over. Admittedly, he gets beaten fair and square at _this_ track.

Actually, the F2002 was introduced in Brazil when Schumacher had excellent straight line speed..By Imola the F-2002 was even stronger...Pablo was nowhere near his team mate Ralf - Ralf was the only one to give the Ferraris a fight..passing Barrichelo at the start and losing out at pit stops..still going on to his third successive podium.

Spain: Lousy track, and a race of attrition. [B]The FW24, at this point, is COMPLETELY OUTCLASSED![B]

That must have taken a while to figure out

Austria: The Ferraris dissapear again over the horizon... The rest of the field is too far behind to even see the controversial finish. As usual, though JUAN IS BEST OF THE REST!

Pablo gets lucky when Ralf loses out due to the safety car..as always he gets ahead of Ralf only when Ralf has problems.

Monaco: Despite his Michelins blistering and turning into total ****, Juan is running second to Coultard and ahead of TGF [B]when his left cylinder bank goes up in smoke![B]

Pablo loses the lead before the first corner..once again...and pulls out before he would`ve been beaten by Ralf who on heavier fuel.

Montreal: Montoya's pit strategy and some _excellent_ driving have him in a position to challenge Schumacher when his engine blows again!!

A blown pit strategy for Ralf once again cost his dearly..while Pablo forgets to "save his engine" this time around.

Nurburgring: Montoya and Coultard take each other out. Not like it would have been much of a race anyway. Ralf finishes fourth, beaten by Raikonnen by 20 seconds!

Pablo gets his butt kicked by Ralf and finds the Mclarens closing in on him...as usual..he cracks under preassure and takes DC off. Ralf goes on to finish 4th - bringing home a Williams which has chewed its tyres to bits. Great effort!

Silverstone: All Michelin runners are fed by the useless intermediate and wet tires! That said Montoya is the only non-Ferrari to finish on the lead lap! Great wet-weather driver, is is Raikonnen.

Another pit-stop screw up by Williams for Ralf puts him out of reckoning. Pablo benefits as always and scrapes to a lucky 3rd..miles behind the leader.

France: The McLarens finally break through to beat the Williams cars. That said, Juan beats Ralf AGAIN, on a track he hates.

Pablo loses the lead to Schumacher twice...even after Schumacher gets a drive through penalty. Ralf finishes less than half a second behind a slow Pablo..despite having to serve a drive through penalty. Once again, it proves that Ralf would have had the upper hand on Pablo yet again..but Pablo's luck will surely run out sooner rather than later!

Germany: Fing Hermann Tilke! Juan does all he can, including an incredible performance in practice and qualifying, throwing the car all over the track trying to keep pace with the Ferraris. The Michelin-shod FW24 is completely outclassed, and he still manages to finish second ahead of Rubens and Ralf!

Pablo was once again outclassed and outperformed by Ralf throughout the weekend...Ralf would have won the race had it not been for another Williams screw up at the pit stop..and Villeneuves stricken BAR in the pit lane costing him time...He is still comfortably in 2nd when Williams call him in for a late unscheduled pit stop..he loses 2nd to once again..a slow but lucky Pablo. Pablo is outclassed again and has to thank Williams for letting him get 2nd place.

Hungaroring: Admittedly, Juan just can't figure out the line around this track. Was really sad to watch...

Over a second behind his team mate in the same machine...Once again is TOTALLY OUTCLASSED by Ralf in the sister car..and gets a lesson taught to him by Kimi Raikonnen who bullies Pablo of the track. Pablo finishes over a lap down on Ralf.

Spa: The Malmedy Massacre. But y'know what? Juan beat the hell out of every non-Ferrari runner AGAIN!!!!

Pablo is out qualified again by Ralf...and gets lucky when Ralf is stuck behind a slow starting Raikonnen in the first corner. Pablo barely hangs onto 3rd - DC is all over him.

Monza: Suspension failure puts Juan out early. If you don't believe me, READ THE DAMN RACE REPORT! IT WAS TECHNICAL FAILURE, NOT DRIVER ERROR! [url]

No..we dont believe you. Pablo made another driver error and paid for it. Ralf had exceptional pace at the start and pssed Pablo..no doubt he would have stayed ahead of him had the engine not blown. Pablo got passed by both Ferraris and then went on to break the Williams apart - thinking he was driving a tank on a demonstration run. Sure enough, he damages the car and pays the price.

How many times has Pablo been beaten...several times...and there are more to come.

[freud]

This is just utter 'Rubbish'... wastage of space...

[Lee Janotta]

Well Mania, apparently you'd just rather be an arse and beat up on the Columbian rather than seriously discuss motorsport with the rest of us.

Strange that you can time and time again defend a guy like Massa who destroys nearly every car he drives, yet say that Juan's too hard on his equipment.

Next you'll be telling us there's a Williams conspiracy against Ralf!

Enjoy watching the boring little Aryan piddle around the track like his granny... I prefer to watch drivers like Juan, Kimi and Jacques... Guys with the balls to actually overtake someone on the track, which Ralf will never do!

[Mania]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Well Mania, apparently you'd just rather be an arse and beat up on the Columbian rather than seriously discuss motorsport with the rest of us.

Strange that you can time and time again defend a guy like Massa who destroys nearly every car he drives, yet say that Juan's too hard on his equipment.

Funny to see you question my post Lee - perhaps you forgot about your own post that I just responded too..to say that your one-sided "Pablo-butt-kissin" post was based on facts and the desire to engage in a quality discussion is laughable.

You put that in as flame bait..pure and simple. And Since its friday afternoon and I have some time on my hands..I gave you a dose of your own medicine. If you didnt like it, then tough. Think long and hard before you put up a post like that again.

[Valve Bounce]

I think some posters are starting to forget that this is a friendly forum where guys respect other posters. If this keeps up, I will exclude all the rude guys from the Ferrari lucky draw when they reach 1000 posts.

Valve

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by Mania




Funny to see you question my post Lee - perhaps you forgot about your own post that I just responded too..to say that your one-sided "Pablo-butt-kissin" post was based on facts and the desire to engage in a quality discussion is laughable.

You put that in as flame bait..pure and simple. And Since its friday afternoon and I have some time on my hands..I gave you a dose of your own medicine. If you didnt like it, then tough. Think long and hard before you put up a post like that again.

Aha... Just because you can't compose a post objectively, don't expect that applies to everyone here.

My "Pablo-butt-kissin" post, as you put it, is back up by race reports from F1-live.com, grandprix.com, dailyf1.com... If their writers aren't qualified to analyse a race, I'd love to know who you think is.

Have I ever said Juan Pablo is perfect, or compared him to Senna or Fangio? Absolutely not. He's not that good. Even is this thread, I've faulted him for not adjusting to the car, but instead trying to adjust the car to his preferences. But is he good enough to beat both of the Schumacher brothers?

You bet he is!

I know you're sore because your beloved Ralf has been beaten by almost every driver he's been teamed with in F1 (Damon, Giancarlo, Jensen)... But don't get ****ed at me just because you picked the wrong pony.

You still haven't answered my question about your double standards for Montoya and Massa.

[Mania]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta


My "Pablo-butt-kissin" post, as you put it, is back up by race reports from F1-live.com, grandprix.com, dailyf1.com... If their writers aren't qualified to analyse a race, I'd love to know who you think is.

Have I ever said Juan Pablo is perfect, or compared him to Senna or Fangio? Absolutely not. He's not that good.


You still haven't answered my question about your double standards for Montoya and Massa.

Actually Lee, your "Pablo-butt-kissin post" is not backed up by any of those sites..maybe you get your gossip from itv or pitpass - hardly considered reputable web sites. But anyway, regardless of where you claim you got them - I think you know damn well its B.S. If we go by your post then Pablo is apparently GOD!

You can accuse me of bias but why dont you take a good long look in the mirror first.

Now, coming to Massa...He's 20, in his first season of F1, scored points in only his 2nd F1 race - whereas Pablo is 27, has years of driving experience, has tested for Williams and driven in CART and F3000 - Plus he`s in his 2nd full season of F1..To compare Massa's mistakes with Pablo's screw up's is rather ridiculous...quit grasping at straws.

Btw, Ralf Vs Pablo...2 seasons...Ralf has 4 wins to Pablo's one..Ralf had more points than Pablo last season and this season he`s only 2 points behind - with 2 races to go..we'll see what happens. Bottom line..its Ralf who has been beating Pablo and not the other way around.

[Adam43]

sorry, mistake post.

[Lee Janotta]

Dad always said, "Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience."

Believe what you want, Mania. Frankly, people don't take your views seriously enough for me to waste my time and energy shooting holes in your hypocritical analyses.

[Mania]

BOO!

[calais]

sorry, double post

[calais]

i couldnt resist answering to this thread.

mania, are you forgetting that TFG in his first few seasons had some crashes and incidents that make montoya's look like child's play?????
or are you conveniantly forgetting?????

and your reasoning that massa's accidents are more forgivable than JPM's is ludicrous.

JPM is clearly frustrated at the poor package he is driving at the moment. hence he is slightly overdriving the car.

and if you think that halfie is the better williams driver, why have head and williams been blasting halfie in the press over the past year, whils they regard JPM as the "future of williams" ??


i better be off

cheers

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by calais
i couldnt resist answering to this thread.

mania, are you forgetting that TFG in his first few seasons had some crashes and incidents that make montoya's look like child's play?????
or are you conveniantly forgetting?????

I don't nor do I forget the he pulled of in 94 and 97. But I can't compare JPM to MS because he really isn't in the same class and you say why below.

Originally posted by calais
JPM is clearly frustrated at the poor package he is driving at the moment. hence he is slightly overdriving the car.

There that's the reason. A great driver or even a good one will try his best for the team and not throw tantrums like in Brazil and Canada. Slighlty overdriving?

Originally posted by calais
and if you think that halfie is the better williams driver, why have head and williams been blasting halfie in the press over the past year, whils they regard JPM as the "future of williams" ??

Team Willy always take digs at underperforming drivers (Mansell, Hill etc.). Ralf was definitely underperforming. He pulled his socks up and look at the result.

JPM is an enigma. He overdrives (told by Head to be a bit more sensible at Budapest), breaks his car and throws tantrums (Brazil and Canada), yet Team Willy do like him and I can't explain why. And where was it that Head got seriously peeved because our great hero wanted to retire his car after mashing it across kerbs and loosing a barge board?

I would stress that as an amateur driver I love motor racing with a passion. Maybe I subscribe to the sportsman and not the rock ape style. Which is why MS disappoints me so much on the sporting front.

[calais]

i was refering to TFG's driving prior to '94.

he was definately overdriving the benetton. some of his crashes were quite laughable.

williams love a racer.
JPM is one
halfie is not.

how can you honestly say, if you can be unbiased, that he broke his car in canada?????

if kimi or anyone else blows an engine, its the engine's fault.

juan blows an engine and he suddenly becomes a car breaker.

[Peter Mallett]

Um,

A number of your points suggest you are arguing my opinions rather than the facts.

Namely;

I didn't suggest JPM broke his car in Canada I meant he threw a Tantrum. My bad English but you could have given me the benefit of the doubt but that wouldn't suit your cause.

We are neither discussing Ralf or Mickey-the-Shoe save for comparison so I'll just say that whatever MS did is not relevant to this topic. As to Ralf if you don't like him fine, he is a good benchmark though.

I said that JPM is an enigma to me because Team Willy like him and I don't know why. Your use of the old saw about loving racers is a bit old hat and stems from when Alan Jones was taking it to Lotus and Ferrari in the old FW06. Now that was an outclassed car but he still competed with it against some serious odds. He rarely made a mistake, wasn't (to my knowledge) ever accused of overdriving (even slightly ) and was seriously aggressive. He is a personal hero of mine because like Sir Frank and Patrick H, I also like a racer. I (like them) like to see a Williams finish on the podium or in the points.

I believe a driver does have a control over his machine even now and as such an engine blowing may not be his fault, but if that driver keeps driving over kerbs and bouncing across gravel traps etc. it surely can't be unreasonable to assume that these things contribute to reliability can it?

Finally I don't like tantrum throwing over-hyped egotistical drivers who can do much better.

[Mania]

Originally posted by calais

and if you think that halfie is the better williams driver, why have head and williams been blasting halfie in the press over the past year, whils they regard JPM as the "future of williams" ??

cheers

Calais..Williams have never hesitated to have a go at their drivers if they feel they need too...usually its Patrick...and usually his words work wonders. Last year, both Patrick and Frank had a real go at Pablo as well..right around Montreal 2001. This year, they told Ralf to keep his concentration going and he has..look at the results. He's been super fast and damn unlucky.

Finally, do you think it actually matters if Williams "love" Pablo and not Ralf?! Cmon! This is racing..not Blind date! Ralf has always had a good realtionship with the team and an even better one with BMW.

So I think the point about who Williams like beter isent important..its the results that count.

[Gt_R]

2 very different drivers produced very similar results.

I don't think we can yet conclude who is the better of the 2...because in terms of results, both are very very close. From either side of the fence, i think you all should cool down instead of battling out the Ralf vs JPM war. Nobody has yet blown the other away.

But is that the point of the post? I thought the title was about whether JPM is over-hyped... i do find die-hard JPM-fans choice of dragging up Michael as a comparison laughable... signs of desperation and clutching at straws maybe?

I love a racer too, and that is why i tend to favour JPM more than Ralf. I love to see JPM push the car out to the ragged edge and wrestling for control...or sticking his car around Kimi. Awesome stuff.

Yes, i think that the hype around JPM is excessive. He is over-hyped. But is it JPM's fault?? Not really...because he didn't exactly hype about himself...but its his fans and the media that keeps the whoo-haa and make high claims... As a result, it creates a hype that anything less, even if JPM did well, is thought to be under-performing.

If we just forget the hype that is built up, certainly JPM is one of the top drivers of the future generation with Kimi, etc. He had done a pretty good job. But if we are to believe all the hype, of how he is the next Senna, would trash Michael's records, then he had not lived up to it yet.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Gt_R
2 very different drivers produced very similar results.

I don't think we can yet conclude who is the better of the 2...because in terms of results, both are very very close. ..................

My thoughts exactly. Although I do admit to a general dislike of JPM.

Originally posted by Gt_R
But is that the point of the post? I thought the title was about whether JPM is over-hyped... i do find die-hard JPM-fans choice of dragging up Michael as a comparison laughable... signs of desperation and clutching at straws maybe?

I love a racer too, and that is why i tend to favour JPM more than Ralf. I love to see JPM push the car out to the ragged edge and wrestling for control...or sticking his car around Kimi. Awesome stuff.

Yes, i think that the hype around JPM is excessive. He is over-hyped. But is it JPM's fault?? Not really...because he didn't exactly hype about himself...but its his fans and the media that keeps the whoo-haa and make high claims... As a result, it creates a hype that anything less, even if JPM did well, is thought to be under-performing.

I agree with you here to an extent. I feel he believes his own publicity and as such suffers because of it. (Tantrums and allegedly trying to retire a car he didn't feel would be good enough to finish in the points).

Originally posted by Gt_R
If we just forget the hype that is built up, certainly JPM is one of the top drivers of the future generation with Kimi, etc. He had done a pretty good job. But if we are to believe all the hype, of how he is the next Senna, would trash Michael's records, then he had not lived up to it yet.

I agree mostly with this, but for his attitude, (I agree this may be a perception but prove me wrong) I can't give him any slack. Either he performs in terms of points and wins or he's toast. Simple because that's how he was sold to us.

Thanks for a good and well balanced post GT R.

[z2252314]

Like what Gt_r said, anyone who claims that JPM is superior to Ralf or vice versa has a clouded judgement. Neither have dominated the other, and on average have performed quite equally.

Is JPM overhyped? Yes, but it is begginning to die down. When he first came in the hype was unbelievable. After 2 seasons, it is quite evident that he still has a long way to go before being a title contender. The hype is at a tolerable level now, in my opinion.

Is JPM the successor to Michaels thrown? At the start of the year, I would have said perhaps. After JPM's poor season, and Kimi's run of form, I'm beginning to believe Kimi might have what it takes. But Ill let the forum in on my special prediction. There is, in my opinion, a driver superior to both Kimi and JPM (and his name is not Michael Schumacher). He will be driving for Renault next year, and given a decent car, he'll blow away Trulli and make people forget about JPM. Yes, Fernando is the next big thing!!!!!

[R]

I'm glad to see another true believer here.

---

The discussion of who's best of Juan and Ralf is an interesting one, as valid arguments are put forward from both sides (though some of the language could be toned down a little, and some are seeing their "hero" through more than rose tinted glasses - you know who you are ).

Personally, I sway towards Juan, though there certainly have been tracks where Ralf has had the advantage. But Juan has definitely been the most unlucky of the two when he's been in race winning positions. I can't remember Ralf ever retiring from a race winning position, but I have lost count of how many times that has happened to Juan.

Though you get a fair idea from discussing, I want to see in numbers how many people think Juan is better than Ralf and vice versa. So I'm going to start a poll on the subject.