Honda or Toyota?

[BARrouette]

As for Honda not being as serious as before, they did not have the compitition that they do now. They were the clear cut top engine manufacturer with two of the best teams in the sport. BMW is now in the situation and has thus far not done much with it. Honda had only two engine failures last season. If that is blowing up big time then poor Mclaren, Williams and Renault who had more engine failures than they did. BAR Honda is not going to just fire people so they can blame them. The team is growing together. DR knows how to manage a team. JB is a good driver Sato is a diligent student. Honda is more involved in F1 now than they have ever been, (besides when they made their own car). I like the way they are doing things. The last part of the season was turning around for them. Tires affected them as much as the lack of reliability. So far the concept car has not had any major failures and the drivers like it. All the parts are coming into place, its the execution now that has to be perfected. [/B][/QUOTE]
Honda only 2 engine faliure DR knows how to manage

[neilap]

Originally posted by BARrouette
As for Honda not being as serious as before, they did not have the compitition that they do now. They were the clear cut top engine manufacturer with two of the best teams in the sport. BMW is now in the situation and has thus far not done much with it. Honda had only two engine failures last season. If that is blowing up big time then poor Mclaren, Williams and Renault who had more engine failures than they did. BAR Honda is not going to just fire people so they can blame them. The team is growing together. DR knows how to manage a team. JB is a good driver Sato is a diligent student. Honda is more involved in F1 now than they have ever been, (besides when they made their own car). I like the way they are doing things. The last part of the season was turning around for them. Tires affected them as much as the lack of reliability. So far the concept car has not had any major failures and the drivers like it. All the parts are coming into place, its the execution now that has to be perfected.

Honda only 2 engine faliure DR knows how to manage [/B][/QUOTE]


If you are going to quote me at least do it properly.

Honda had motor failures before the race in Australia. After that their gearbox which was designed by another comapny was the main culprit until the USGP!

How many winners has DR produced in the WRC? If he was laughable I dont think Solberg would have done so well.

[BARrouette]

Sorry but i saw a lot more than 2 Honda engine blew up last year lol
and DR does not know what is professionalism . You dont fire someone that work is ass for 5 years from scrap.Especially if that guy won a champ.He has no respect for his employees and that is why BAR will not see the best Honda with DR.Buy the way i own a honda and i like it...

[HKUSP40C]

On race day, only 2 engine failures. Not sure about how many they had in practice though.

[BootsOntheSide]

You fire someone if he's not pulling his weight and is more intent on unsettling the team. That, I'm afraid, was the stroy of Jacques' final season. Spending his salary on car improvements will be the ebst move Dave has made so far, trust me.

[BSchneiderFan]

I couldn't agree more. I was less surprised that Richards let Villeneuve go than that JV had lasted so long, as he was producing utterly unremarkable performances, and, once he had destroyed poor Ricardo Zonta psychologically, he was being matched first by Panis and then by Button. BAR didn't and doesn't owe JV anything; he was handsomely paid for his time there, and, frankly, didn't do very much. Sure, the car was bad in the early years, but then so was the management (I'm looking at you, Mr. Pollock). What BAR needed - and, in Button, has - was a driver who spent his time wringing every last ounce out of a mediocre car, not whinging about how bad things were and how he deserved better (because that always seemed to be JV's eventual subtext). I know this is heresy, but I won't miss him in 2004.

But back to the point, Honda or Toyota. At the moment, Toyota look more committed and purposeful; equally, though, there's something quietly impressive about the post-JV BAR. I have a lot of time for both David Richards and Jenson Button, and I admired the way that Button went to Japan and talked to the Honda people almost as soon as he'd signed for BAR. He wants it all to work, and he realises that effort is needed for that to happen. Sato is more of an unknown quantity, but he was good at Suzuka, so fingers crossed. But I think a great deal hinges on BAR's long-term ownership. What happens when the tobacco money runs out? Will Honda buy the team up? Will Prodrive? Until we know that, we can't really judge their long-term prospects.

[mansellmania]

Originally posted by neilap
Firstly, Honda has always trained its engineers in motorsport. They are losing absolutely nothing in F1 by rotating out the engineers. The main structure is still there.

Think of what Toyota did... they moved to Germany to use European people; as though their own are not good enough. Toyota only wants to win so they can brag about it. Honda wants racing to be in the veins of everyone that works for them. They want to win more than anything else but they also want to learn.

As for Honda not being as serious as before, they did not have the compitition that they do now. They were the clear cut top engine manufacturer with two of the best teams in the sport. BMW is now in the situation and has thus far not done much with it. Honda had only two engine failures last season. If that is blowing up big time then poor Mclaren, Williams and Renault who had more engine failures than they did. BAR Honda is not going to just fire people so they can blame them. DR knows how to manage a team. Honda is more involved in F1 now than they have ever been, (besides when they made their own car). Tires affected them as much as the lack of reliability. So far the concept car has not had any major failures and the drivers like it. All the parts are coming into place, its the execution now that has to be perfected.

well bold statement galore..


the biggest objection untill last year was, what i read back from guys like nigel roebuck, that every year new engineers where send to BAR HQ wich was hurting development.
honda lack the will to push for a really competative engine.
I dont see the link toyota being bad and only wanting to win when they invested bigtime to built their own car + engine.
you could say the same about Honda only looking at euro people to built a car for them.
last year the hondas died with huge fireworks only this year it has been a bit better but werent there a few blown up engines in the practise and testdays wich prevented jenson but especially jacq to work on reliability?
for the last few years firing people is all what BAR did.
the last one that was axed was one jacques villeneuve.
Honda went from blowing up engines to cutting revs making heavy big and not fueleconomic engines wich was main concern by a certain J.Villeneuve.
Honda didnt make their own car.
they had a testmule (arrows?) wich was used to try out lots of stuff.
as for Dave Richards knowing how to manage a team.. someone who says jenson button can be worldchamp and pays him a 6.8 million pound salary, oughta be checked in the head imo.

[BSchneiderFan]

The Honda test mule which appeared in - IIRC - 1999, under the direction of the late and much-missed Harvey Postlethwaite, was an enigma. Pedalled by Verstappen, it seemed to be turning in very promising lap times, but then Honda changed their mind about a full factory team (because of Postlethwaite's death?). How might they have fared, I wonder?

[neilap]

Every team had motors go in practice. In fact even the first gp in Australia, had other teams blow up. If they are going to blow up, its better there than in the race. When Honda came into F1 they underestimated the committment needed to win races. At this time they are practically building the car. The only aspect that Honda has little input in is aero because BAR still knows more about it than they do.

JV was not fired! His contract was not renewed. He was a spoiled, arrogant and overpaid little boy. He had his moments of brilliance but he did nothing at BAR. Pollock had him there as crown prince. When management changed JV started whining. Forget him, thats HIStory!

Everytime there is change of management you can bet there will be loss of jobs. DR and company felt things needed to "tighten up" in the team. He is there to run the show not make everybody happy. Its reality. BAT wants him to win races and titles. One year with a car completely under his design staff and the leap foreward is obvious. Much of that has to do with them getting Honda more involved in buliding and designing the car.
As for the Honda motor it has been disappointing year after year. They seem to try their best to avoid convention and lose each time. Thats fine though because they learn from it. At the end of the season it was as powerful as the front runners, it was the weight that was its problem. Again, we are talking abut 5-10 kgs. At the end of Toyotas experience in F1 they will still know nothing about the sport except how much it costs. Toyotas car is not Japanese its European. There is nothing brave about that. Basically all the cars in F1 are European. Its Honda alone that is trying to bring the sport to Asia by using their own people.

Oh, I can quote people too. Here is an article about the BAR season and it future. All writers are biased, regardless of how openminded they pretend to be.

<http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns12301.html>

[mansellmania]

Originally posted by neilap
Every team had motors go in practice. In fact even the first gp in Australia, had other teams blow up. If they are going to blow up, its better there than in the race. At this time they are practically building the car. The only aspect that Honda has little input in is aero because BAR still knows more about it than they do.

JV was not fired! His contract was not renewed. He was a spoiled, arrogant and overpaid little boy. He had his moments of brilliance but he did nothing at BAR. Pollock had him there as crown prince. When management changed JV started whining. Forget him, thats HIStory!

Everytime there is change of management you can bet there will be loss of jobs. DR and company felt things needed to "tighten up" in the team. He is there to run the show not make everybody happy. Its reality. BAT wants him to win races and titles. One year with a car completely under his design staff and the leap foreward is obvious. Much of that has to do with them getting Honda more involved in buliding and designing the car.
As for the Honda motor it has been disappointing year after year. They seem to try their best to avoid convention and lose each time. Thats fine though because they learn from it. At the end of the season it was as powerful as the front runners, it was the weight that was its problem. Again, we are talking abut 5-10 kgs. At the end of Toyotas experience in F1 they will still know nothing about the sport except how much it costs. Toyotas car is not Japanese its European. There is nothing brave about that. Basically all the cars in F1 are European. Its Honda alone that is trying to bring the sport to Asia by using their own people.

Oh, I can quote people too. Here is an article about the BAR season and it future. All writers are biased, regardless of how openminded they pretend to be.

<http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns12301.html>

Who are you to say blowing up engines is better in practise than in a race?
Prost used up 77 peugeot engines in one season.
Losing one practise session is a pretty expensive event in these days of strict testing procedures and setup work for, for instance, the bridgestones.
Who are you to say they are practically building the BAR?
only the aero work for BAR? dont make me laugh.
BAR is stil a very big team with 300+ employees who i dont think 'only'do the aero work.
wasnt that faulty gearbox that loves to break down a product of BAR inhouse team?
do you think the engine people tell the aero people how and what to do?
what kind of F1 knowledge is that?
EVERYTHING is subjective to aerodynamics these days.
Renault didnt built a wide V10 just for the hell of it.Ferrari didnt win 5 straight WCC's with big superpowered engines.
the integration of F1 engines in the design has shifted towards low as possible centre of gravity,small,compact, light, fueleconomic and driveable.
Jacq villeneuve said ,while he was still under contract, that honda lacked progress in these exact areas.
this was 3 or 4 months ago.

allright you could say he was not fired.
If i read that intervieuw with him correctly, he said to richards back in may that if he didnt want to continue with jacq, all he had to do is say and he would go and look for another team.
As it was he got told before suzuka that his services where no longer needed for 2004 wich left him without any chance to lobby for a competative seat.
Spoiled, arrogant and overpaid and little have zilch to do with his ability as a racecardriver.
Id talk with you about that but in another thread or in the pub over a few beers orso.
But you are wrong to say he did not do anything for BAR.
Without jacq there wouldnt be a BAR team. BAT have invested over 500 million pounds in that team just bcs villeneuve signed his name to it.
BAR later renewed the contract with Villeneuve,not vice versa!

I dont think you can compare the toyota team with honda suplying engines to BAR.
The toyota engine is a big handclap more powerfull than the honda is and was.
what is not brave about building an F1 car in Europe?for years and years many people said you can only build F1 cars in England.
Roebuck and others have said the demise of Prost was also because Alain did not wanna leave paris.
If you think just buying stuff is bad you must be disgusted with mclaren and especially mercedes, who pay a nice check to ilmor every month to rebadge their V10 as a merc.

[neilap]

Who are you to say blowing up engines is better in practise than in a race?

In practice it costs money. In the race it costs money, points and embarrassment of millions of people seeing, including potential sponsors.

Who are you to say they are practically building the BAR?

Being one of the few Honda geeks on this site I get as much news on Honda and their F1 project. I have read this on many occasions. Maybe you dont understand what I am saying. Hondas athena (sp) project helped bar work on a stiffer better balanced and more effective chassis. Honda has 200 engineers working with BAR. They dont tell BAR how to build the chassis but they do have a large amount of data and input to provide. On the aero side, Honda does not have the expertise that the BAR people do so their input there is not at the same level.

wasnt that faulty gearbox that loves to break down a product of BAR inhouse team?

No! X-Trac.

do you think the engine people tell the aero people how and what to do?

No. Its called teamwork.

EVERYTHING is subjective to aerodynamics these days.

Not quite. Its the best compromise. Not aero first. Aero as the sacrifice of stability wont work, etc.

the integration of F1 engines in the design has shifted towards low as possible centre of gravity,small,compact, light, fueleconomic and driveable.

This is stating the obvious. Again, there is still a balance needed. Renault is the perfect example. The wide engine helped with cornering stability but hurt them on the straights. Also, Ferrari does not brag about having the best motor, chassis or anything. The always praise the "car". Its engine companies like Honda, BMW and Ford that obscess with engine power.

As for JV... who cares. History!!

The toyota engine is a big handclap more powerfull than the honda is and was.

Prove it!! The only thing you know about the power of the Toyota is what the PR people say. Toyotas performance did nothing to illustrate engine power. Everything looked like light fuel loads. I know what Shuhei Nakamoto, Engineering Director, Honda Racing Development said at the start of the season and at the end. He stated that weight was thier biggest handicap. He also stated the motor was above 19k which suggests hp was over 900. As Sato said power means nothing if you cant use it. The balance of the car was not perfect partially because of the COG of the motor. It had the power!

what is not brave about building an F1 car in Europe?

Lets, see. Its a good escape, Toyota engineers will not be blamed for the lack of success of the car. Also, what does Toyota get from the expericnce if they dont win a title? Nothing, they learn nothing. If the build their "own", Japanese car and succeed its much better than a European car with Toyota badges and Toyota money.

mercedes, who pay a nice check to ilmor every month to rebadge their V10 as a merc.

what kind of F1 knowledge is that?

If you think its that simple then its not even worth explaining or discussing.

Let me know if you have any more questions

[mansellmania]

Originally posted by neilap
In practice it costs money. In the race it costs money, points and embarrassment of millions of people seeing, including potential sponsors.

Being one of the few Honda geeks on this site I get as much news on Honda and their F1 project. I have read this on many occasions. Maybe you dont understand what I am saying. Hondas athena (sp) project helped bar work on a stiffer better balanced and more effective chassis. Honda has 200 engineers working with BAR. They dont tell BAR how to build the chassis but they do have a large amount of data and input to provide. On the aero side, Honda does not have the expertise that the BAR people do so their input there is not at the same level.


This is stating the obvious. Again, there is still a balance needed. Renault is the perfect example. Also, Ferrari does not brag about having the best motor, chassis or anything. The always praise the "car". Its engine companies like Honda, BMW and Ford that obscess with engine power.

As for JV... who cares. History!!

Prove it!! The only thing you know about the power of the Toyota is what the PR people say. I know what Shuhei Nakamoto, Engineering Director, Honda Racing Development said at the start of the season and at the end. He stated that weight was thier biggest handicap. He also stated the motor was above 19k which suggests hp was over 900.

Lets, see. Its a good escape, Toyota engineers will not be blamed for the lack of success of the car. Also, what does Toyota get from the expericnce if they dont win a title? Nothing, they learn nothing. If the build their "own", Japanese car and succeed its much better than a European car with Toyota badges and Toyota money.

what kind of F1 knowledge is that?

If you think its that simple then its not even worth explaining or discussing.

Let me know if you have any more questions

lol

you dont think cars that break down bcs of lack of proper reliability testing is not costing money and giving embarrassment to the point an average F1 driver outscores a former worldchampion?

you seem to love to contradict yourself.
one hand you want me to prove the toyota engine is better and that only official toyota pressrelease says nothing yet 1 line later you go and quote a similar PR statement from honda about the engine?
At least you're backing down from the statement that'they (honda)are practically building the car' to that they have an influence.
influence on what exactly?
mounting points of engine? colour of cooling hoses?
what kind of proof can you present to me honda has a significant impact on building the BAR chassis?

the athena chassis enhancement was canned end of 2000 iirc as it wanted to incorporate some electronic functions into one.
Villeneuve, a guy in the know, said end of last year the BAR simply did not have enough downforce.
He was the one stating the obvious but apparently not so obvious for honda about the areas that needed improvement in the honda engine.

I find the argument on why european built toyota would be a bad thing a bit weak as they seem to only reap a lot of praise for their first and second year, building an entire team from scratch, WITH japanese engineers since you seem to think that is so important.

i still dont get it why you think a european car 'with Toyota badges and Toyota money' is any different than an austrian engine badged as a mercedes.

[BSchneiderFan]

Well, knock me down with a feather. Another F1 thread is transmogrifying into a *****-fight.

Honda vs. Toyota, anyone?

[Mr V]

Originally posted by BARrouette
DR does not know what is professionalism .

Dave Richards is one of the most professional men in motorsport. You don't get to where he is without being professional.

[BSchneiderFan]

Amen to that.

[Wrex]

Mansellmania - I really am going to have to insist you make a better effort when posting. From Parc Ferme rules of Netiquette

Try to keep in mind that English is not the native tongue of all of those who participate - it is important that you remember this and endeavour to use correct spelling, grammar and punctuation. You should not use 'text speak' as this is a discussion forum - NOT a chatroom or mobile telephone!

I dont think you appreciate how frustrating it is to read your posts (and as a mod, I have to). If I ever need to edit your posts, be aware I will just delete it.


Thanking you in advance,


Wrex

[neilap]

mansellmania,

you obviously know more than everyone else here, me included. I am sorry I wasted your time. Please forgive me and allow me to still post here without being harrassed or picked apart. Maybe you take pleasure in beating up on poor little ignorant people like myself but you need to realize your strength and knowledge on F1 far overshadows anything anyone here could ever think up. You even know that the Athena project was not used, on the BAR even though Honda and BAR said they were still continuing their efforts. Anyway I give up. Maybe you will see that not many people here agree with what you have to say on most topics and realize you dont know everything. Until then, you are right and I am wrong. Peace.

I never thought I would find a use for the ignore list. Thanks guys.

[mansellmania]

Originally posted by neilap
mansellmania,


I never thought I would find a use for the ignore list. Thanks guys.

wich is pretty easy to use when some people ask beyond the usual made up wisdom exampled brilliantly by yourself.

you stated like its common knowledge that honda builts'practically' the entire BAR car.
When i counter that with some facts you go and hide behind lame personal accusations.
If i was being cranked in my ego i would complain to the moderators for you putting up flamebait but since im a peacefull character i just leave you with an invitation to continue the conversation wether totoyta is a stupid european team and BAR being suplied with honda engines.

kind regards,

mansellmania

[Wrex]

I already have complaints about flamebait Mansellmania, about you!!!

Neilap, you must admit you are a little oversensative when the names Honda or Toyota are brought up. I also think people can view one thing from a completely different angle.

You thinks it's great that they are keeping the team Japanese, I think it's niave and applaud Toyota for not making a similar silly mistake.

Ferrari is hardly an Italian team is it?

You want the best, you get it. And you dont worry about what country it originates from.

Thus my conclusion, Toyota is here to win.

[mansellmania]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wrex
[B]I already have complaints about flamebait Mansellmania, about you!!!


You are a moderator and laugh, double point , about people complaining about me posting flamebait?

like at neilap's case.. he post something he thinks is thr truth.. i counter that with some facts and suddenly the whole discussion changes.
its not just neilap, its majority of mclaren/ anti shumi-ferrari fans that love to endulge in phrases like' im sure that this, il assure you that mclaren that'.. wich is no style of posting.

not in the way of the netiquette.
if mclaren fans/antishumi fans think this or that... start your own thread and defend your stance or thesis to the bone.
if someonelike me comes back with facts and willing to debate not to mention my readyness to admit any fault i make
is being served of as flamebait i find that very cheap behaviour.

[Mr V]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mansellmania
[B]

Originally posted by Wrex
if someonelike me comes back with facts and willing to debate not to mention my readyness to admit any fault i make
is being served of as flamebait i find that very cheap behaviour.

Just a couple of things here fella. You mention that you back things up with facts, i'm not saying that you don't (it's just that the rest of us haven't heard of them ). However,and i don't want to appear condecending, you have been here less than a month, and you do not post links when backing up your arguement. This combination usually leads to others, who have been here for quite, not taking things seriously.

[BSchneiderFan]

Take it outside, chaps, and let the thread return to its original (and valid and interesting) subject.

On which... I read somewhere on another thread someone say that Toyota will really have 'arrived' when they take on a big-name driver. I said then, and say again now, that I'm not sure Toyota are interested in buying in a big name. Given their admirable nurturing of young talent, I suspect they would rather develop their own champion-to-be, and I strongly suspect 2005 will see da Matta partner Ryasn Briscoe, with Zonta in the wings if either of the first two is tempted elsewhere. Can da Matta do the double of winning the CART title and the F1 title, if Toyota improve enough by 2006 or 2007? Is Briscoe up to the job too?

BAR, conversely, brought Button in from (an admittedly lacklustre performance at) Renault, and plucked Sato from Jordan (though Honda had long had their eye on Takuma-San, I suspect). I've always been very impressed by JB, and if BAR and Honda up their game, I think he's a race winner and potential champion. Sato? Who knows? Fast, yes. Sublime car control, yes. Champion-in-waiting? I'll get back to you on that...

Oh, and rumours are that 2004 will see David Richards buy out BAT's holding in BAR.

[mansellmania]

Originally posted by Mr V
you have been here less than a month, and you do not post links when backing up your arguement. This combination usually leads to others, who have been here for quite, not taking things seriously.

well perhaps you have a point.

but like about honda i thought and think that 90% of the forumpopulation have read villeneuves comments on the honda engine.
it was on the various sites.
i really cant put that obvious knowledge with all links to verify.
il keep it in mind when we talk about less known things though.

back to the topic i really hope honda will make a big leap in the above mentioned areas next year and that sato wins at least 2 races.good for the sport no doubt.
with button leading 80% of the race and dropping out with mechanical problem and sato taking the win
and then button getting told one race before the end his services are no longer needed in 2005

okay okay wishfull thinking

[Wrex]

Originally posted by mansellmania
okay okay wishfull thinking

Just when all the votes are in, we have a new contender for understatement of the year

[Mark Webber]

Thats it Toyota have a firm package to date not outstanding but good enough for a 5th in the WWC Panis & Da Matta are a good average pairing and I'd say the team is a strong and the car is quick and was in the later half of this year so I see Toyota collecting points quite often (like there road cars boring but do the job )when Ryan comes to the plate the car should be good enough to fight the top 4 regularly.

BAR/Honda
well I make no bones I dislike Honda (sorry neilap) I feel that BAR has lifted (remembering the fawled design's of past ie: areo ) . Bar are a good team a strong team with a very good driver in Jenson . BUT IMHO BAR have a chink in the armour in Honda in which I feel IMO have trouble building /designing a non turbo F1 motor again my opinon.
and as for Sato yeah he is quick but at what cost cars? points? ala Massa one thing is for sure Sauber & BAR will get good TV coverage with the crashs .

I may be looking at it wrong but I see BAR and Jaguar in the same bracket both haave strong plus and strong weakness which may turn but I doubt it
Jaguar has a good car as does BAR
Jaguar has a top driver in Mark . Bar have Button
Bar has a strong team /Jaguar doesn't
Bar has a weak motor /Jaguar doesn't
both have weak No2 driver
both on same tyres (could be the telling factor)
again IMO Jaguar /BAR will be main rival's this year