Mark Webber

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by Mark Webber
blah blah blah

The fact that Mark is one of the most respect driver in pit lane by hs peers and by YOUR press is not enough let alone dragging a dead cat up the grid still not enough
hmm lets see
as a test driver he has beaten consistantly
Fissi
Button
Trulli
Wurz
Alonso
as a Team mate in F1
WILSON
Young
Pizza
Davidson
Kilen
hmmm still not enough
1st driver to put a Jag on the 2nd row
on the board on the Driver commity (VOTED BY DRIVERS)
oh and is the sole key driver to next year sily season (but what would MB right)
scored 2 pts in 1st year
18 in yr 2
thats 39 starts and 20 points not many can cliam that ratio
ths is a outstanding list for a driver in his 3yr of F1
as I said belive what you want but your current thinking holds no water
so build a bridge and get over it

Testing doesn't mean much when it's not on an even keel in terms of everything else. He failed to dislodge any of those guys from a race seat despite those testing results, which has to mean something.

And it's YOONG, not Young.

The points comparison means little, because we're using a different points system now - under the old one, Webber scored 3 points last year. In any case, Michael, Rubens, Jenson, Juan Pablo, Ayrton, Alain, Kimi, Jean and lots more are miles above that stat (admittedly in better cars).

I think Webber's among the extremely promising young drivers in F1 right now, along with Fernando, Kimi, JPM and Button. However, from what we've seen so far, he isn't neccessarily the strongest. Getting into a good team for next year is crucial to him developing his chances.

Oh, and he doesn't really hold the key to the driver movement for next year - most of the moments being suggested wouldn't be happening if Montoya hadn't signed for McLaren. Besides, that's a very arbitrary measure of a driver's quality and significance.

James Courtney (another promising young Aussie) missed a race in british F3 in 2002 after crashing while testing for Jaguar at Monza (but lost that title by mroe pioints than he could've got from doing the meeting) - which I assume is what you were thinking of (incidentally, there were over 30 points in it between Wilson and Webber).

I know Wilson is 6 foot 3, and I believe Webber is around 6 foot 0 (tall for an F1 driver, but about the same as DC whos' had no problems)

[1200Datto27]

I find it funny that there are people knocking Mark's testing results, saying that they do not count due to different conditions etc, but are beating up Anthony Davidsons talent(*) based on his testing results, c'mon guys, you can not have it both ways, you either accept everyone's testing times, or you ignore everyones times, make a choice and then stick to it.

* I have no issues with AD, I believe that he does have genuine talent.

[Wrex]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
I think Webber's among the extremely promising young drivers in F1 right now, along with Fernando, Kimi, JPM and Button. However, from what we've seen so far, he isn't neccessarily the strongest. Getting into a good team for next year is crucial to him developing his chances.

Absolutley.

If he spends too much time in the Jag, he could slip into the mode of an almost man, similar to Fisi.

I am a Webber fan, but we wont know how good he is in a top car until .... he's in a top car!. Many drivers have shown promise in slower cars but have been able to carry the form at the front of the grid. The expectations are higher, the critisism sharper and many fail to perform.

Would I bet my house on Webber being a WDC? No.

Would I put good money on it? Absolutley.

[ActiveMS]

Webber is a quick qualifier, but I wouldnt have said his race pace is very impressive at all. Its one thing to qualify well, but its a whole other ball game to race with 20 others.

Its unfair to say he trounced Wilson, especially when all the team effort went on Webbers car (just need to look at the number of mechanical and car glitches Wilson had). I would rate Wilson as a better racer out of the two but not as good at qualifying.

Im not a fan of either driver or jag, but it does seem his placement next year is pivotal to the rest of the grid, whether justified or not.

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by 1200Datto27
I find it funny that there are people knocking Mark's testing results, saying that they do not count due to different conditions etc, but are beating up Anthony Davidsons talent(*) based on his testing results, c'mon guys, you can not have it both ways, you either accept everyone's testing times, or you ignore everyones times, make a choice and then stick to it.

* I have no issues with AD, I believe that he does have genuine talent.

I think that's pretty misplaced. If you check the other threads about Davidson you'll see that I've made that very point about testing not being equal earlier today.

And I completely agree that he had much better circumstances up agaisnt Wilson. In fact, agaisnt all the team-mate's he's faced except Yoong, he's had some advantage in experience or team support - and Yoong was enver going to rival anyone of any real talent.

[Tiptop]

And I completely agree that he had much better circumstances up agaisnt Wilson. In fact, agaisnt all the team-mate's he's faced except Yoong, he's had some advantage in experience or team support - and Yoong was enver going to rival anyone of any real talent. [/B][/QUOTE]

exctly I think Webber is a good driver but many people are now judging his talents against drivers who never had the chance to shine at Jag (being a one man team...me thinks)

I was comparing him really in F3000 against Wilson when this is a more level playing field and in my eyes Wilson will always be better.

I will of course come back in few years and apologise to all webber fans if he becomes a WDC

[Wrex]

Originally posted by Tiptop
I was comparing him really in F3000 against Wilson when this is a more level playing field and in my eyes Wilson will always be better.

Shame F3000 has nothing in common with F1 bar 4 tyres and a steering wheel.

Can you name me all those F3000 champions that went on to be F1 WDC?

[freud]

Tiptop, I agree that Jaguar might be a one-man team.. we dont know how it operates. Things are not black and white at Jaguar like Williams and McLaren. Though I think that Jaguar probably does NOT operate like Ferrari. Even if Jaguar focuses on one driver (e.g. Webber) over another, it does not forces its second driver to play 'lapdog'. Imho, we should keep that in consideration while judging any of the Jaguar drivers.

If one asks me why that is important.. this because myself being a Kart racer in past, I know for sure that you can only be 'really' judged against a driver in 'exact' car as yours. In motorsport 80% is the car under your bum and rest is 20%.

[Tiptop]

Originally posted by Wrex
Shame F3000 has nothing in common with F1 bar 4 tyres and a steering wheel.

Can you name me all those F3000 champions that went on to be F1 WDC?

Whats that got to do with anything! I am merely stating a FACT that Wilson was better in F3000 than Webber. Or do you think that the 2nd placed driver should be crowned champion

get real it's obvious in your eyes (and any other ozzie) that Wilson is the next Senna

[1200Datto27]

And HH Frenzten beat MS in sportscars, does that make him a better driver? Some drivers are better in the lower formula's than others, some will rise to the top when they hit F1, others can win everything in the lower classes, but then fall in a stinking heap when they hit the pressure in F1. And this does not relate to how the team or car that you are in, it is what the driver can do with the tools and opportunities that they are presented with. If you have talent, then it will show, even more so in a poor car. If you don't have talent, sometimes a surname and better cars can help.

[Wrex]

Originally posted by Tiptop
Whats that got to do with anything!

Nothing, thats why I was wondering why you brought it up.

Originally posted by Tiptop
I am merely stating a FACT that Wilson was better in F3000 than Webber.

Actually that would be you OPINION (that I agree with), not a FACT. A fact would be that Wilson won the championship.

*We really need to get a dictionary out here so people know what a FACT is*

Originally posted by Tiptop
Or do you think that the 2nd placed driver should be crowned champion

:confused: No idea what tangent your on here.

Originally posted by Tiptop
get real it's obvious in your eyes (and any other ozzie) that Wilson is the next Senna

Wilson the next Senna? I dont think so. Or Webber for that matter.


Go outside, the graphics are amazing.

[Tiptop]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1200Datto27
[B]And HH Frenzten beat MS in sportscars, does that make him a better driver?

At sportscar racing yes, at F1 no seeing as MS has gone on to become a WDC several times over.

But look at it this way just because MS beat HHF in F1 does that make him the better driver ?

[Wrex]

Tiptop, what exactly is your point (or this thread)?

You dont think Webber is that good, others disagree, case closed. Everyone will have their reasons why they believe what they believe. We can argue about it forever.

FACT - most of pitlane seems to think Webbers pretty good, and I'm sure you'll agree they know more about this stuff than you or I do.

[ASCII Man]

But, but... Wilson IS God!
And God is presumed to be the top dog!

[Tiptop]

FACT - most of pitlane seems to think Webbers pretty good, and I'm sure you'll agree they know more about this stuff than you or I do. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hmm we could go on all day but I have better things to do

as for the FACT most of the pitlane thinks Webber is good, that's there opinion not mine.

Other drivers have arrived in F1 being hailed as the next best thing then dissapeared from F1 altogether (Magnussen being an example)

The point of the thread was to give reasons why he was so good. Then for everyone to discuss why they thought not

I won't bother witha discussion again as I see that many people get upset when the wrong things are said about their heros

[Wrex]

As far as I can tell, your the only one upset.

People have given their reasons, discussed them, and you disagree. No biggy really. Its not about right and wrong, its just people opinions. Take a chill pill.

[freud]

Originally posted by Tiptop

Other drivers have arrived in F1 being hailed as the next best thing then dissapeared from F1 altogether (Magnussen being an example)

I agree... in formula-one you never know. Again, as you put it in one of your posts, we would have to wait and see what he does in a top car like williams (i.e. if he does get in).

[1200Datto27]

People have said why he is good, but you refused to listen, and just kept on going off on tangents when shown this evidence.

[Mark Webber]

Originally posted by Tiptop

Other drivers have arrived in F1 being hailed as the next best thing then dissapeared from F1 altogether (Magnussen being an example)

[/B]

Or Wilson for that matter. Not that I've got anything against him

[freud]

Was Wilson ever hailed as the 'next best thing' in f1... I dont think so.

And lets not just pound on Wilson here.

[BootsOntheSide]

I wans't impressed that Webber has earnt a one-seocnd qualifying lap penalty for ignoring yellow flags. That's pretty amateurish stuff really, and overturns his superb weekend at Monaco.

I agree that F300 isn't the best feeder championship to compare talent, but it's more because so many good drivers either skip that level altogether (Michael, Frentzen, Raikkonen, Hakkinen, Massa) or don't get the funding to run full seasons in top teams, after the crucial 'learning' year (Damon Hill, Alonso).

The 2001 comparison between Webebr and Wilson can be done fairly though - Webber was in a team which had won tonnes of cahmpionships, Wilson a teaam which never won a race before or after that season, yet he won by a contry mile. That says something.

[Yoong Montoya]

Originally posted by D.R.T.
and has done more with a Jaguar then anyone else ever has.

No he hasn't. He has never scored a podium with one. In fact, his best results so far have been three 6th places - Irvine scored two 3rds and a 4th with worse equipment than Webber. If not for the new scoring system, Webber would have only scored 3 points last year.

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide

I agree that F300 isn't the best feeder championship to compare talent, but it's more because so many good drivers either skip that level altogether (Michael, Frentzen,

Frentzen did do F3000

[marcus]

and Michael did one or two races in F3000 as well

[Kicking-back]

Michael never raced in FIA F3000.

He did a race in the Japanese series.