Kalkhoven & Forsythe Buy Pi Group

[Snrub]

I would agree with AC that CC was part of the motivation for buying Cosworth and Pi and naturally we're going to focus on that because CC nearly had the rug pulled from under it. Knowing that the series is safe in these two aspects that are required to make the series run is important and good news for CC.

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by Ac.

.

I would suggest that the decisions to purchase Cosworth and Pi were 100% driven by the desire to build a strong base for Champ Car, but that Kalkhoven and Forsythe would not have made the purchases if those companies were not capable of standing on their own without CC. That's just smart decision making.

Actually, these companies cannot survive only on income from activities performed for CC. They need other customers to be profitable.
For PI I don't see that as a problem, for Cosworth imo it is.

Cosworth just lost it's primary backer for F1 (Ford) as well as Jordan, and Red-Bull made it quite clear that they would also consider other options in the future. Cosworth will have to step up their quality-level of their f1-engines to remain interesting for any party in F1.
As for the IRL-engines they produce, Chevy is leaving so that will also be a loss of revenue.
There are plenty of opportunities to create more income for Cosworth, but that has to prove itself in the future. The base that cosworth had for years is gone, so imo it is a risky investment.

[Teretonga]

Cosworth has done heaps of development work over the years for a multitude of companies and that will probably continue. taking it out from under the Ford unbrella may cause other auto makers to regard it as more 'independent' than it was.
The alloy Duratec engine in Ford and Mazda light trucks started life as a cosworth race project...Actually it would make a good base engine for an Atlantic engine...

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by macdaddy

The same could be said of any racing series, no? Or of any business, of any kind, anywhere?

And I think it is very wise (albeit sad) to let go of some of the "loyalties" to "traditions" that were CART. Where is CART now?

Well this is an interesting response, macdaddy! For a long time I have been reading here how superior CCis to the "other" series as CC had the best mix of the elements that made CART (annoying Board decisions that ruined the Series aside) the Series that we "Love."

Now we apparently love this series so much that as it gradually morphs into an odd little animal seemingly to be based on transient steet races (The OWRS motto: 'You got streets, we got a Series!'), the support here is now moving away from those things that were once strengths.

So what is OWRS? If it is not a philosophical descendant of CART what is it? How then can anyone here claim that OWRS is somehow more "true" than the IRL as now it seems the IRL - reviled roundly for doing it's own morphing - is now moving more towards that mix of venues that produced some of the most unique racing and some of the most well-rounded champions in any form of racing.

Would any series exist without profit? We all know the answer to that is no. What I am failing to see here though is what exactly is/has OWRS become. The cynical side of me says that what it has become is a Traveling Racing Show. An oddity that comes to your town to entertain and amaze, kind of like a sophisticated Joie Chitwood Thrill Show.

As Mr Horse put it so succinctly to Ren & Stimpy: "I don't like it, not one bit."

[JohnSSC]

As a further thought, think back to all of the posts criticizing Teams for "leaving" to go to the "other side." The long lists of why they should be loyal, the tradition, the honor, etc that was associated with the old series.

Now it seems that all of that was just sort of an "oh, well, times change." So then all of the teams that left, all of the venom spent on Michael Andretti, Bobby Rahal, Adrian and others was for what?

What this now boils down to is to let the best racing determine which is the best series I suppose. I will be interested to see then this coming season to compare and contrast and perhaps even to decide who will remain in the long run.

[Teretonga]

Very true John. I too have been dismayed at the way many of the things that CART seemed to stand for have been lost. I recognise that there may have had to be some changes in the battle to survive, but my hope is that they will survive and thrive, ultimately restoring some of the elements that made CAT the great series it was 10 years ago.

[JohnSSC]

Exactly my point Teretonga! The only real constant is change. I undertstand and accept that for the Series to survive change was mandatory. The extent to which the roots of the series are being left behind dismays me a great deal though.

CART was an evolution from the things I loved about USAC and after much drama, OWRS was advertised as carrying-on in the tradition established by CART. I read many posts here about how OWRS was the "true" standard in open whel since they were going to carry on all the great traditions made popular by CART. The more I see of the "Plan" it is obvious that CC is to become nothing more than a "vehicle" to "access revenue streams." I listen to that sort of b/s all day at work. I want to see good clean reacing at tracks (road courses as well as stereet and ovals) that I love to see racing at, not squeal and clap my paws in glee at yet another venue where profitability is more important than being a test of people and their machines.

The owners of this series, as is their right, are going to see a return on their investment. I truly wish them well. I just wish that the "Plan" had as much room for RA, Mid-Ohio, Phoenix, Laguna and yes, the 500 as it does for such romance-of-racing inspiring venues as the proposed Edmonton or San Jose generic street races. The Suburbanization of racing continues, I suppose.

I will watch on TV, but I think I will be spending my money this year on more visits to Lernerville.

[GTRMagic]

Is it just coincidence... but did some of these problems start after they released the movie "Driven"

Anyway.. on a more serious note... and on topic...

I dont understand why exactly pi would be of such great importance to 2 of the 3 amigos... it would fit a lot better with someone like a Bosch, or Magnetti Marelli or other similar product manufacturers... whereas the previous power/knowledgebase of that company remains at RedBull/Jaguar.... all very very strange

[indycool]

GTR, I agree on the Pi purchase......and with Cosworth the same way.

The Two Amigos must have other future plans for Pi and Cosworth than we know now because they could easily have continued to run OWRS without owning them. They own something like 92 Cosworth engines and all they need is a company for rebuilds and at-track support....which could be handled by a number of firms. The teams were using Pi Research stuff anyway.

I agree with JohnSSC that these companies must stand on their own and KK and GF must have futuristic plans for them in a business sense that is far greater than just OWRS. Haven't heard numbers on the Cosworth deal, but $10 million is the number I've heard for Pi. Both Forsythe and Kalkhoven have dabbled around the edges of F1 and Forsythe is about to lose his stake in BAR. It's possible the purchases are for further entre into F1 as a primary business.

[Chucky]

Originally Posted by Snrub

Wat implications does this have for Bosch's involvement in CC? You may have noticed that currently all the car's have Bosch logos on them because they're running Bosche ECUs. (I think in the past they ran Motecs)

They never ran Motec.

At present they use Pectal, Pi's ECU brand. Bosch supply spark plugs (good ones at that) but little else. In the past it was split between Pi and EFI Technology.

[codename_47]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Exactly my point Teretonga! The only real constant is change. I undertstand and accept that for the Series to survive change was mandatory. The extent to which the roots of the series are being left behind dismays me a great deal though.

Well, it's obvious.....Champcar HAS to change....

And it's not just Champcar, leaving aside the easy target of intended all oval series suddenly going road racing, even the lofty F1 business is having to change from it's European roots to more flyaways to faraway Asian countries because of Tobacco advertising Laws. That's where the Money is, that's where they'll go.

NASCAR is bracing itself for the influx of a Japanese engine manufacturer for the first time, because they'll bring with them a lot of money....

I can't think of a racing series that's not in a transitional period at the moment, honestly!!

Champcar needs to morph from the bankruptcy of CART to being a profitable series again. While I'll agree it's sad to see the financial side put in front of tradtion, it's what has to be done.

When the series is on stable ground again I'm sure there'll be a lot more time for the traditional element to return
Heck, if every other race brings in profit, then why not run Laguna Seca and maybe another oval round at a loss, overall they'd still be in the...err....whatever colour it is that means profitable!! (Green? )


With the Trioka in charge, I have every confidence in such a prosperous future!

[Ac.]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

The owners of this series, as is their right, are going to see a return on their investment. I truly wish them well. I just wish that the "Plan" had as much room for RA, Mid-Ohio, Phoenix, Laguna and yes, the 500 as it does for such romance-of-racing inspiring venues as the proposed Edmonton or San Jose generic street races. The Suburbanization of racing continues, I suppose.

The "Plan"? That terminology sounds too close to the "vision" for my liking. I think JohnSSC, that we must all display some patience while the next few years pass by. I too would like to see great tracks like RA and Mid-Ohio back on the schedule (I am/was planning on making the trek to RA this year), but I understand the economic neccessities of not going there for a time.

The other series is making visits to some of the old US roadcourses, but how long will that continue when attendance is poor and costs high? Teams are already falling by the wayside over there.

The American(and Canadian for that matter) consumer just isn't interested in consuming sports and entertainment that aren't convenient any more. Our instant on culture has created an army of remote clicking, lazy lumps that are always looking for their next five minute fix. Street racing fits that bill as it is close to home, and fills the excitement quota for the afternoon.

As a Champ Car fan I am hopeful that the success of the series over the next few years will bring a measure of profitability which will allow a return to tracks such as RA, Mid-Ohio, and Laguna Seca, even if the financial return of those events is marginal at best.

Fans of the other series need to hope for the same thing otherwise the less profitable stops will continue to be dropped from that schedule.

[JohnSSC]

Ac, well if they don't have a Plan, Vision, Blueprint, Roadmap or Schematic than OWRS is in worse shape than I thought!

As I stated above I absolutely agree that change was needed and that the Amigos were certainly entitled to make this a for-profit deal.

I will also note that all Three of Them have emphasized the rich history and tradition of CART and their desire to keep that alive. As Rich Vogler was quoted in another thread in the IRL Forum, (and I paraphrase) now all they do is throw up some concrete barriers and orange cones and you have an instant race track. I do not want an all street-race Series.

I will also disagree with the contention that if it isn't convenient Americans/Canadians won't go. NASCAR is in for a heck of a surprise then because they don't use a single temporary circuit yet they somehow have managed to develop a series that attracts about a gazillion people to each and every one of 42 events per year. ALMS, Grand-Am, Speedvision Challenge, ARCA, World of Outlaws etc sure seem to be able to attract crowds all by themselves at established circuits all over the country as well. A Sprint car street race is somewhat of an intriguing idea I admit though...

So what you are telling me here really is that neither IRL nor OWRS have a good enough product to compell someone to get up off their arse and go see it. That is sad considering these should be duking it out for "Premier Open Wheel Series" bragging rights and that COMBINED they have fewer race dates than NASCAR.

Face it. Open Wheel Racing in North America has been hijacked. It is morphing into something that has neither vision, nor elegance, nor tradition. It is becoming Roller Derby. The Bay City Bombers appearing on TV from some random, un-named metropolis possibly near you. All hail the revenue stream!

[macdaddy]

John, the "revenue stream" is of utmost importance.
Hasn't that lesson already been learned?

If I were left with two choices,
- A series with no RA, Laguna or Mid-Ohio,
or
- No series, with no RA, Laguna, Mid-Ohio, Cleveland, LongBeach, Australia or Toronto,
I'd pick the former. And I'm glad that I had a choice.

For the time being, it would appear that open-wheel fans have three options.
F1 for permanent road courses.
IRL for ovals.
ChampCar for everything else.
And again, I'll state that I'm so very grateful to Tres Hombres for giving us all that third option.

That's not to say that I'm glad these venues are lost. Certainly nothing could be farther from the truth. I'd love to have more ovals and more road courses, but then again I'd love to see ChampCar survive for more than two or three years.

And comparing American OW series to NASCAR is somewhat unfair in this day-and-age. In the US, you can't really compare NASCAR to anything other than the NFL.

Tres Hombres have the most definitive "business plan" that ChampCar has ever had. And I'm sure that they'll see it through to its successful conclusion.

[JohnSSC]

I wasn't comparing to NASCAR - I was responding to Ac's contention that people are too lazy to go a race unless the race is brought to them. As NASCAR and the other Series' I listed have a large number of permanent tracks (some in rather inconvenient locations) we can see that it is wrong to say that people won't go to an established venue. Lots of people go to see a product they want to see. It seems OWRS is only a product people see if it is brought to them. That is a problem as I see it. "Oh, an Indy car race here? I guess we can go look." Doesn't this sound better" "Champ Cars at Mid-Ohio! I am going for the whole weekend!"

People get geeked-up to go to Martinsville, Daytona, Indianapolis, Eldora, Sarver, Darlington, etc. They rarely get geeked-up to go to an anonymous city. I don't see many people going to Edmonton except people who live there, while RA draws a lot of people (or used to) from a multi-state/province area. Whatever you say about them, there is no romance, no tradition-steeped heritage to be found at your basic temporary circuit - even Cleveland is really crappy when you look at it from that perspective. And I like that circuit!

Revenue IS important, but this is a racing series and the racing should also be important. The Amigo's plan seems not to be how to make CC profitable because of the type and quality of racing but to make the series attractive from a marketing point of view - more of an attempt to attract sponsors to the series as a vehicle for their advertising rather than because the racing is exciting/good/technologically sophisticated.

[evo]

I am really going to miss the Champcar race at Road America. Always one of the highlights of the season. Not to distraught though as I'm pretty sure open wheelers will be back at Road America in 2006, even if it is the IRL.

[GBoehm]

I can see it now....... Monopoly... Champ Car Edition

[codename_47]

Originally Posted by GBoehm

I can see it now....... Monopoly... Champ Car Edition

Just as long as they don't end up Bankrupt!

[macdaddy]

Isn't there still hope for RA's appearance on the 2005 schedule?
I thought there was, I've been keeping my fingers crossed for weeks now and they're getting sore.

[Snrub]

Originally Posted by Chucky

They never ran Motec.

At present they use Pectal, Pi's ECU brand. Bosch supply spark plugs (good ones at that) but little else. In the past it was split between Pi and EFI Technology.

I didn't realize I was saying something so ludicrous. I thought ~10 years ago they did run Motecs and I wasn't sure when they switched over. I could have sworn they currently use Bosch ECUs because I thought that I read that somewhere. I say that with more prior conviction than the first point, because I had initially thought as you said that they were just a plug supplier, but then I read that Bosch supplied ECUs and was quiet surprised. I'll see what I can find...

[Snrub]

After some searching I coudln't find where I got that Bosch ECU stuff from, or even what I might have confused.
They did use Motec data acquisition back when, perhaps that's what I confused: http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/lo...88495626ss.htm
Just mentioning for interests sake, apparently Motorola made the ECUs for the Honda engines circa late 90s.