Getting Rid of Mandatory Stops?

[theracegypsy]

Originally Posted by codename_47

Indeed, in fact there were a few times last year when I was sure Champcar would bring out the yellows to make things tenser, but to be fair they held their hand and no yellow came out.
Champcar doesn't need faux Yellow periods to put on good races!

I suspect that is because Champ Car use experienced volunteer (but professional) course observers, most of whom are SCCA F&C members, together with some FIA international driving standards observers.

While they may have personal favorites amongst the drivers they are fair and unbiased with their calls.

NASCAR & IRL use paid circuit staff or team spotters, who tend to have a vested interest.

To be fair to the NASCAR Observers the "yellow for debris" call to bunch up the field is often called by the race director from race control. If challenged they can say they "saw it (the debris) on the CCTV screen."

Now that should start an interesting discussion in a different thread.

[Snrub]

I don't think it's realistic to expect teams to keep multiple green laps worth of fuel in the tank just in case there's an extended yellow. Having 5 drivers drop out to a yellow flag misguess is going to make the series look stupid.

CC doesn't pull that "yellow to make things exciting BS," but I think in the past because things were so competitive there were more crashes and thus more yellows. It did make things more exciting because there were more changes for position as a result of yellows bunching cars up and the restarts. There's nothing to critisize about that, it's better than in many F1 races with no yellows but no passing.

[codename_47]

Originally Posted by Snrub

I don't think it's realistic to expect teams to keep multiple green laps worth of fuel in the tank just in case there's an extended yellow. Having 5 drivers drop out to a yellow flag misguess is going to make the series look stupid.

CC doesn't pull that "yellow to make things exciting BS," but I think in the past because things were so competitive there were more crashes and thus more yellows. It did make things more exciting because there were more changes for position as a result of yellows bunching cars up and the restarts. There's nothing to critisize about that, it's better than in many F1 races with no yellows but no passing.

What was it Tracy said after Long Beach?
Something like, with all the "superstar" drivers now elsewhere, we can get through the race without cars crashing and yellow flag periods blighting the race......(save for the mandatory turn 1 incident of course... )

[drewdawg727]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

No offense, but if one finds it pointless to watch if someone has a big lead isn't that negating the fact that there might be some good racing going on anyway?

I would also agree with K-B that someone being that far ahead is their achievement. For Race Control to throw a Yellow to "bunch things up" would be extremely frustrating to me as a fan and a racer. As a fan, one would hope that the racing is clean and honest. I really don't want the field "bunched-up" just to make it more "exciting." It would be like going to a football match and having the ref start handing out red cards to a team that has a big lead to "even things up."

As a racer I would have to ask: "What is the point of optimizing the setup and strategy if someone is going to wipe that out at their discretion?"

As far as the mandatory stops eliminating the economy runs I do not think that is entirely true as there are other factors such as tire wear/performance and lap times decreasing as fuel load decreases. In other words over a certain distance you are going to have to come in X number of times for tires anyway, so let the teams decide when they are going to do that rather than impose it on them.

My own philosophy here is to give 'em as much ethanol as they want, turn the boost knob to "Ludicrous" and tell them to have at it!

Wow i didn't see it in that fashion before
You have an extremely good point there that in fact if they are ahead, they are there for good reason, sorry john.

I still think theres nothing better than a bunched up field and hardcore racing action

[Amar7605]

I also agree with what John said. Give the teams a pre-determined set of tires and fuel, and let the teams basically figure out when they need to pit. Pit strategy is a vital element in auto racing and always has been. That should not be taken away.

[JohnSSC]

I remember back in the "Energy Crisis" days where even though they used methanol and NOT gasoline, USAC set a limit of gallons that could be used during a race. Teams would tip their tanks over to one side to try to get every drop out.

What I would like to see is no artificial limit at all - no economy runs, no "nothing left in the pits" just full-bore for the race distance.

Oh and F1 does have yellow flags but they do it the old-fashioned way: local yellow at the scene of the incident then normal speed everywhere else. Safety Car is used only if absolutely necessary. I have no idea why anyone wants a full course yellow (even on a street circuit) for "debris" at an isolated corner.

[The Snout]

The less rules to 'manufacturer' a race the better. You start at lap 1, you finish the race at lap x, how you get there first before everyone else is up to you and your team. The full course yellow is for safety reasons only and is the only case now in which the rules affect strategy. Having said that it's the same for all, if you don't want to get caught on track with low fuel when a yellow comes out then pit a lap or 2 early to be sure. If you choose to push the fuel to the very end, fine, but you knew before the start of the race that it can be a risk if a yellow comes out.

[enemy-ace]

New rules!
http://www.champcarworldseries.com/N...le.asp?ID=8701

In regards to yellow flags, I don't think you can really compare Champ Car and F1. At circuits such as Monaco you do see a safety car more often than at other circuits. At the same time F1 employs the use of cranes while as Champ Car has a safety truck to manage the situation. F1's safety standards are much higher but the cost of it is also higher.

[The Snout]

Good points ace.

[StickShift]

Champ Car managed to make a decent rule change!

Hopefully no pit windows and no fuel mixture options will make for some interesting races.

[Amar7605]

Pit intervals and mandatory pit stops have been abolished this season, meaning that teams no longer have any directives on when they must pit and what they must do during that stop. The previous rules forced teams to pit at specified intervals and forced teams to change four tires during that stop.

“The goal is to take it out of the hands of the officials and put the onus back on the teams,” said Champ Car Vice-President of Operations Tony Cotman. “There’s definitely more than one way to win a race, and we want to leave it up to our teams to find the best way for them to get to the front.”



'Nuff said from Amar

[macdaddy]

From enemy-ace's link:

Rules regarding full-course caution periods have been addressed, with the pits being automatically closed during full-course yellow flag conditions. When conditions warrant, Race Control will open the pits so that all cars may pit at their discretion.

Hopefully they'll have the new rulebook up in .pdf form soon. Because this is kinda confusing. When exactly do "conditions warrant", and when don't they?

[enemy-ace]

From what I gathered from Cotman's interview I think it means either when the accident is clear or more likely when the race is green again. I think this is meant to take away the lucky yellow wins. Everybody has to make green flag pitstops.

[Snrub]

From the article: "The Friday and Saturday morning practice sessions will be shortened by 15 minutes, a move that is expected to lead to more on-track activity as teams will spend more of their morning hour on the track working on their machines."

I could see that hurting the lesser teams. They need all the time they can get to do their setups.

[StickShift]

Originally Posted by enemy-ace

From what I gathered from Cotman's interview I think it means either when the accident is clear or more likely when the race is green again. I think this is meant to take away the lucky yellow wins. Everybody has to make green flag pitstops.

I read it as when the incident is under control. So they'll still pit under yellow, just not on the very firsy yellow lap necessarily. This way, the grid will still be bunched up when they pit.

Waiting for green flag pitstops seems very unnecessary.

[Kicking-back]

I understand he means when the race is green again.

[JohnSSC]

My read anyway is that the pits will be closed until the Safety Team determines the conditions are ok to open the pits. Note that he says during a "full-course caution, all racing ceases." I interpret this to mean the caution goes up, everyone slows and then the pits open so that no one is "racing" back to the pit entrance. Unless the incident is right at the pit entrance I see this as the pits opening on the first lap after the full course caution is shown.

In regards to shortening the practice time, my experience has been that most teams, no matter how badly they may need the practice, do not make use of the full time allotted. The fans sit there for extended "practice" periods without hearing the sounds of racing engines - a bad thing. I think this is a move to compress things a bit so the fans at the track see more "activity" on the track.

[StickShift]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

My read anyway is that the pits will be closed until the Safety Team determines the conditions are ok to open the pits. Note that he says during a "full-course caution, all racing ceases." I interpret this to mean the caution goes up, everyone slows and then the pits open so that no one is "racing" back to the pit entrance. Unless the incident is right at the pit entrance I see this as the pits opening on the first lap after the full course caution is shown.

I think you've nailed it JohnSSC.

[JohnSSC]

Makes sense to me, anyway! Thanks StickShift!

[macdaddy]

That's why I'm waiting for the new rulebook to be released! Their statement was very vague.

[Amar7605]

When will the new rulebook be realeased?

[Tim Northcutt]

Today's Indy Star quotes Tony Cotman as confirming that Pit stop parameters have been lifted for the 2005 season.

Cotman said, "The goal is to take pit stops out of the hands of the officials and put the onus back on the teams.

"There's definitely more than one way to win a race, and we want to leave it up to our teams to find the best way for them to get to the front."

There's your answer....

HURRAY!!!!

No more stupid pit windows!!!!

[macdaddy]

Cristiano da Matta's take on things:

It makes it a little bit of a fuel consumption game. You have to drive fast and at the same time save fuel, and that’s fun. I don’t mind either way. Whatever the game is you have to know how to play it well. I think for the pit windows not to be determined is much more exciting for the fans watching the race. Sometimes you’ll see guys going all-out. Sometimes you’re gonna see guys conserving fuel. But there will be more different strategies going on inside the race and I think that makes it interesting for everybody.

I gotta agree. The pit-window was a good idea on paper, and worth a try, but it didn't work.