Nascar's Impact on Champ Car's Future

[Jordi]

The first step for that would be reunification. Then, there wouldn't be two series attempting to find two different markets apart from the NASCAR market.

But reunification?! Please! Lock me somewhere, it seems like a bad idea these days.

[JohnSSC]

Excellent points, GP! Much as I groan whilst admitting it, NASCAR has their fan base down cold. Further, they seem to be making a lot of moves that will expand and enhance that by making the driver base more diverse to attract demographic segments previously un-reached.

Jordi, reunification is the only way Open Wheel will be able to carve out their "niche." One should not need to feel they should be "locked up" for perceiving the solution to a problem.

Norman-normal, then could you explain how F1 manages to be more popular than NASCAR if "sophistication always has a more limited following?"

[norman-normal]

John,, think about it a little I'm sure you'll figure it out.

[GP Racer]

Originally Posted by norman-normal

NASCAR is racing for the masses, of course its more popular. Sophistication allways has a more limited following; and accusations of snobbery.... Get used to it.

I remember when open wheel racing "was racing for the masses", and NASCAR was just a regional series.

It has nothing at all to do with being more "sophisticated", but thinking that we are does nothing to welcome new fans into the fold. Part of the problem the way I see it...

[Omega99]

The most important thing open-wheel needs is stability. That is what NASCAR has really had that open-wheel hasn't: The same drivers/venues/teams year in and year out. Both the IRL and CCWS are busy trying to "find themselves" and really develop an identity, and they change it so frequently (sometimes once or twice a year) that people don't have enough time to get to know it before it changes again. Strength is stability.

Unification may be the best way to create stability, to stop the endless flip-flopping of drivers/teams/venues from one series to the other. But at this juncture, unification seems rather unlikely.

[Amar7605]

I cannot believe that unification is so hard to do. I mean, I understand the issues involved, but look at other companies. You see mergers all the time. And that is because they are trying to capture a greater market share in whatever industry that they are involved in, and they want to use the best of each others' resources. Why cant CC and the IRL see that?!?!?!?!?

It's amazing how logic and rationality escapes people who are in power.

[macdaddy]

David Phillips posted a commentary on SpeedTV today that has very much to do with this thread.

[Dov]

Originally Posted by Amar7605

It's amazing how logic and rationality escapes people who are in power.

If you've been watching the NHL owners and players fiasco of late then you would realize that people in power have lost their sanity.

[macdaddy]

Ouch! Don't bring the NHL into this!

Imagine if we had finally gotten "Silly Season" sorted out, a confirmed grid, only to have the drivers go on strike or the owners lock them out!

[JohnSSC]

Thanks for the link macdaddy. Phillips is pretty much on point there. He is from Pittsburgh as well - I wonder where....

GP, I think you followed on norman's point - which was I see now (I hope) that "Open Wheel fans are more sophisticated than lowly NASCAR fans." Hubris is always "rewarded" though, isn't it?

It is almost amusing to read how CC/IRL are attempting to "find" their market. Maybe they should try reading back issues of "National Speed Sport News" and see what the market was that they have managed to lose and then find ways to go back to their roots in some respects.

[Snrub]

My point regarding the late yellow flag was to address John's statistics that supposidly indicated that the Daytona 500 was an exciting race. The race at the front was a parade until Gordon attempted to pass Stewart. Unfortunately Gordon had no one behind him so ultimately he began to fall back because he had no "rear draft" benfit. Then the yellows came out and chaos ensued on the repeated restarts. No yellow = parade finish like much of the rest of the race.

As for why the good Nascar drivers are paid the big bucks, it's not for their ability to put in a fast lap at Daytona. With one's foot to the floor the only impact on speed is getting the best possible line and turing the wheel as little as possible to reduce tire scrub. This takes some skill, but among good drivers it's not enough to distinguish them amoung each other. There are other skills at play during that type of race as well. The IRL and Champ Car have put on lousy races where the drivers are in the same situation, but at least they can run beside the other driver and jocky for position. On the weekend they couldn't even do that.

I think people are missing the point I was trying to make. My point is not that CC is going to take down Nascar, but that like everything Nascar isn't perfect. For various reasons there are some Nascar fans who've gotten into other series.

Here's an automotive example of what I'm trying to say: Compare Honda to Ford, GM, Chrysler. Honda is weak in the SUV and Truck market because until recently they haven't introduced anything. Honda is now introducing the Ridgeline truck. Honda knows they cannot compete against the Ford F150 so they haven't tried to, but that doesn't mean they've given up on trucks and focused solely on cars, bikes and engines. They've taken a different approach with their truck to appeal to a small group, but they still built a truck to compete in the booming truck marketplace. 30 years ago Honda couldn't have produced this truck because the marketplace wasn't interested in trucks. Who made trucks appealing to the masses? The big 3, not Honda. Just because the big 3 owned the truck business didn't mean that Honda had to stick to making bikes. Nascar has created a big motorsports marketplace. I don't think there's any reason why CC couldn't potentially produce an entertaining large oval event and that in the right situation, some Nascar fans could find it entertaining. If even 5% of Nascar them can be convinced that a large oval CC race is better than Nascar's, CC would make a HUGE coup. (that doesn't mean CC gains 5% of Nascar's fans)

[Amar7605]

Mr. Phillips is right. NASCAR makes a lot of money for a lot of people. CC, IRL.... they are more-or-less liabilitites to networks unless they pay for air time.

Personally, NASCAR is not as intriguing as open wheel. And IMHO, it's all hype. But that is what Americans fall for these days.

Sad. Very sad.

[Omega99]

Originally Posted by Amar7605

...You see mergers all the time. And that is because they are trying to capture a greater market share in whatever industry that they are involved in, and they want to use the best of each others' resources. Why cant CC and the IRL see that?!?!?!?!?

It's amazing how logic and rationality escapes people who are in power.

Well, it seems logical, of course, but petty rivarly gets in the way of big business too. You'd never see Coca-Cola and Pepsi merge. Or IBM and Apple, or Ford and GM, or Toyota and Honda.... etc. Unfortunately, in those cases, rivalry results in hyper-competition, and both companies imrove their products, increase sales and benefit from it instead of slowly eroding away at each other until the bottom falls out.

[GP Racer]

Originally Posted by Snrub

I think people are missing the point I was trying to make. My point is not that CC is going to take down Nascar, but that like everything Nascar isn't perfect. For various reasons there are some Nascar fans who've gotten into other series.

I think most of us get your point Snrub, but they just don't see any opportunity for CC through NASCAR.

If your a NASCAR season ticket holder, I believe you have to purchase 2 IRL event tickets. There are also numerous IRL giveaways at NASCAR events, but with all of that, the IRL has gained little if any new fans from NASCAR, even though the IRL races on ovals, and is faster and more exciting to watch, IMO. So if they can't get any new fans, then I see no chance of CC getting anything either.

There are other issues to. CC had there chance to impress some NASCAR folks at LV, and they just blew it! We looked like amatuers trying to compete with the majors. NASCAR fans like to see American drivers to, and CC offers little for them in that dept.. Try telling them that watching Lavin or Enge is as exciting as watching Dale Jr. and Jeff Gordon, guys that will be around for about 20 years or so, while the Lavins and Enges are long gone after a year or two. I think you know what the response would be! A 43 car grid compared to 18? Street racing parades, that offer no passing? That won't fly. Different venues for CC all the time, while NASCAR builds its history on the same tracks year-in, year out? PG dreams about going to S Korea, and S Africa, while Bill France comes to New York City. Network TV coverage compared to Spike TV? And Speed Channel, with NASCAR stuff on 24/7! Who would even know there is open wheel racing anymore? The Bush series, Arca and NASCAR truck series are better attended, better run, and more widely seen then either CC or the IRL! There drivers are better known to, and thats there "ladder series"!

I need to stop, I'm getting depressed...

[Amar7605]

This may sound like an off-the-topic question, but does anyone know if CC has their own marketing department, or do they have an outside company for that? The reason that I bring this up is that if their marketing is done in-house, then maybe that is part of the problem. If CC had a fresh set of people analyzing their company then there's a possibility that a better marketing strategy could come about.

But what I am thinking about is probably years away. They need stability and consistency first!

[Amar7605]

Now I know that all we are seeing is negative in this forum, but we have to keep in mind that the CC season hasn't started yet, so there could me more interest this year. Also, the TV deal that CC has can help in generating more interest. And it looks to me that the current schedule has the potential to be stable for the next few years. So having said that CC's future isn't as bad as it seems.

Plus, if there is a change keep mind that it's going to take a while to change. NASCAR fans aren't gonna be instant CC fans after one season. But I think that CC has some potential. We just have to keep the faith.

[The Snout]

Comparing CCWS to NASCAR is like comparing a startup IT company to Microsoft. Not saying we shouldn't have goals and try to be all we can be and all that jazz, but how about trying to just be a successful racing series and break even first.

[macdaddy]

Amar, I THINK that CC outsources marketing. At least, I THINK they did so last year. And I THINK that last year's company has been ditched. Yet take a look at their current staff list and you'll see that there are people (although very few) whose job-descriptions include marketing the product.

You might also notice that Martyn Thake has a job with no title!

[macdaddy]

Robin Miller has also added a commentary to SpeedTV...

To put that Daytona rating in proper perspective, we need to realize that a 10.9 was larger than all 14 Champ Car races added together and multiplied by three on SPIKE last season.

[Ac.]

Originally Posted by GP Racer

I remember when open wheel racing "was racing for the masses", and NASCAR was just a regional series.

It has nothing at all to do with being more "sophisticated", but thinking that we are does nothing to welcome new fans into the fold. Part of the problem the way I see it...

Like any sport there are sophisticated fans, and there are the masses(or bandwagon) fans. About all that open wheel has left these days are the sophisticated fans, the ones who do care about skills required to pilot the car, about the technology, and about team aspect of the sport.

Some like JohnSSC stopped watching NASCAR because of the restrictor plates. I stopped because of the covert actions of race control to bunch up the field by throwing the yellow for "debris" on the track, and because of ridiculous rules like "lucky dog", "green, white, checkers", and the infamous "chase".

The typical NASCAR fan doesn't care about any of this. As someone wrote earlier in this thread, it's all about the driver they support. Some of these people are so fanatical, they even have toilet accessories with their driver's number on them(I'm not kidding!)

This too shall pass. Just as the popularity of all sports ebbs and flows the short attention span of the NASCAR nation will inevitably shift to other things and NASCAR will settle in at some level. All that is to say that I don't think that open wheel racing is going to attract any of these fans, nor perhaps do we really want them. Attacking a new demographic of fans is going to be the best way for open wheel to find growth for the future.

[Dov]

Originally Posted by Ac.

The typical NASCAR fan doesn't care about any of this. As someone wrote earlier in this thread, it's all about the driver they support. Some of these people are so fanatical, they even have toilet accessories with their driver's number on them(I'm not kidding!)

This too shall pass.

Sorry, Ac., I couldn't help myself.

[gttouring]

or some have toilet accessories for drivers they don't like-ahem

Sadly at this height of popularity no openwheel US based series will offer the stars the support or PAYCHECK to make it worth their while. Champcar would crush everything at this point if they could afford to lure the sponsors away with drivers to race there...
a dupont Lola Ford with flame paint job- a Budweiser Lola Ford, a Dewalt Lola Ford, you can see a home depot openwheeler...these would draw legions of fans and merchandising to CCWS and well the rest would be history...aas it has become not a 'drivers' series but a "guy in the car and his billboard colors" series. and as CC has removed the car equation out as it is essentiallly a spec series today (likely more to happen in the IRL though), it would be a perfect fit... alternatively ALMS can do the same thing with hordes of C6R's in the "nascar-relative" colors or Vipers and Ford Mustangs or GT's racing...
it really is an expensive but great way to capitalize on individuals success and popularity for a simple draw to a series...
why would Rusport or PKV or Rocketsports give Jeff Gordon or Dale Earnhardt a ride for a weekend in their sponsor colors- it would be a smash home run. surely on a saturday race.
OWRS honchos should ride the wave and playinto the labotomized fans and steal it from under TonyGeorge's nose..Would tony stewart pass upan Indy 500 ride, or for practice or enough money in a winning team would he race LongBeach or Denver, or Milwuakee? Many of them would, Kurt Busch tested at sebring (why isn't this on the CC calendar?)
it is a cash cow and everyone can milk form it today, so instead of fighting why not feedd into it? crossover appeal helps make CC stronger um Duh?
one Caveat- can any drivers find room in the schedule?
wel the labontes have for GrandAm prototypes...but this is also very accomodating for them

[JohnSSC]

I think it is a mistake to label fans of another Series "lobotomized" just because they are not fans of the Series you are.

I know a number of knowledgeable racing people who still like NASCAR and sport a certain amount of driver-related stuff. None of these folks have been lobotomized.

Further, the CC product just is not that good right now. Casual fans are not going to witness a CC/IRL race and have a Great Moment of Epiphany where they realize that Open Wheel is the Ultimate. Especially if that CC/IRL race is a street race, but I digress.

As I noted earlier, NASCAR provides "Spectacle." Their popularity is going to increase as they are making the moves into demographic segments they have not reached. To use another sport, look at the NFL. I remember when free agency and the salary cap were decried as the "doom" of the sport. Turned out that the NFL's popularity now is unprecedented as a result of those two things. Parity in the league gives every fan the opportunity at least to dream that "their" team will go all the way.

Sound familiar? NASCAR has also encouraged parity and spectacle. It has also encouraged inter Team rivalry: "The 24 car vs the 6 car" and young bucks vs the old guard: "Kurt Busch vs Mark Martin" and then intra Team rivalries as the young drivers move up the ladder within Hendrick's or Roush's operations and push the established Cup drivers.

"Crossover" is suggested. Question: "Why on God's Green Earth would any NASCAR Team want their drivers to take time away from a 42 race Cup schedule, plus any number of Busch appearances to do a one-off in CC?" Do NFL players do "one-offs" for the local rugby team? No. Why? Because that has no value to them. Same with NASCAR. There is no benefit whatever to NASCAR to do that and they did not get where they are by doing things that don't benefit NASCAR.

What is needed here is a focus on ONE Open Wheel Series. That is the only way Open Wheel will be able to claw it's way back to respectability.

[N I Tram]

Persuading NASCAR guys to do one-offs in any race other than the 500 would be a big ask, simply because the NASCAR guys race almost every weekend from Feb to Nov already, and the races they do have bigger fields, competitiveness and prize money. It's not unknown for drivers to do one-offs, at Le Mans or Daytona for example, but only usually for races which are significantly bigger than the parent series.

[GP Racer]

Just to show you what open wheel is up against, I copied a typical days programming on Speed Channel. This is for Feb,25th, but almost everyday is the same, if not worse. Since speed week began, it has been nothing but NASCAR nearly 24 hrs. a day. While Speed will show some CC races this year, there won't be any "CC Nation", "CC 24/7", or "CC Live" shows. NASCAR is like Mt. Everest now, nearly insurmountable...

26 Programs Found
Schedule Subject To Change
Friday : February 25, 2005
Time Program Description Rating
6:00 am Paid Programming Paid Programming NR
6:30 am Paid Programming Paid Programming NR
7:00 am Legends Of Motorsport Spitfires at Le Mans TV-G
7:30 am Dream Car Garage Season Premiere TV-PG
8:00 am Chop Cut Rebuild TV-PG
8:30 am Car Crazy Ford GT, Part 1 TV-G
9:00 am NASCAR Nation NR
10:00 am Tuner Transformation Mazda Miata TV-PG
10:30 am Sports Car Revolution TV-PG
11:00 am Paid Programming Paid Programming NR
11:30 am Paid Programming Paid Programming NR
12:00 pm NASCAR Nextel Cup Replay The Daytona 500 NR
3:00 pm NASCAR Busch Series Daytona NR
5:30 pm NBS 24/7
6:00 pm NASCAR Live! Fontana (LIVE) NR
7:00 pm NASCAR Nextel Cup Final Practice Fontana (LIVE) NR
8:00 pm Trackside California (LIVE) NR
9:00 pm NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series Fontana (LIVE) NR
11:30 pm NCTS Tenth Anniversary Ten Years Tough TV-PG
12:00 am NCTS Tenth Anniversary
12:30 am Trackside California NR
1:30 am NASCAR Past Champions Jack Roush
2:00 am NASCAR Ultimate Race Fan Weekend presented by Ditech.com TV-PG
3:00 am NASCAR Fast Forward NR
5:00 am Paid Programming Paid Programming NR
5:30 am Paid Programming Paid Programming NR