Are there too many race formula's?

[R59]

I think rather than Pre-93 being Gp.1, it's sounds more like the old Gp.A, which allowed such mods. But to keep the costs down, you have to draw a line to stop some of the mods that were tried in those days by some of the touring car teams - reverse heads, and the like. They still had to have he engine in it's original place (within a little, unlike the supertourers with their V6's on the side, and worse!), and the suspension pickups had to be the same with type original systems.

Al, I remember the same kind of discussions about rules within Super Road Saloons, we had people who pushed the rules to the limit - like Lotus Carlton brakes on a Saab 9000, 8" rims on the 1800cc class cars where it was only 7 before, just so a certain person could run their Fiesta (it never won the championship!), and then someone whittling on about "The Ethos of the rules" and that we should be allowed things like rose joints.......arrrrgghhh As you know, with lots of rule changes, it died.

And I think that Gerry (and Denis) have their work cut out to keep ModProds going with all of the competition out there now, especially now Hot Hatches allows up to 2L cars, with mods much more like ModProds/Super Road Saloons/Castle Combe, and offers cheap racing....

Rob.

[Al Weyman]

I think they (ModProds) have a secret weapon in their armoury with the new E class because it will be seen as a resting place for the new Prod saloon championship and I think that will keep it alive.

It did go too far in my opinion and was better in the format I originally penned the rules (IMHO of course I hasten to add) and I am not overly happy with some of the 'progress' that has happened in particular the rose joints and de-turboed cars. I also think tying in to one make of tyre is a no no, it was OK with the Falken deal we brokered because thay gave us a proper slice of money (25k a year ten years ago) and the tyres had a very good range of sizes but I am not so sure now. I know Toyo are generous with the tyres but as I understand it no cash as such to be used to make the entry fees more attractive or a bit of prize money and their range is more restrictivemeaning I personally would have to spend a lot of money replacing two perfectly good sets of 16" rims for 17 or 18's at a cost of many hundreds of pounds (£2500 plus?).

Hey my IROC Z/28 is a Hatchback, do you think 750 MC would consider expanding the 2 litres up to 5.8............

[Andrew Hornsey]

Originally Posted by Larry J-Croft

.....I would hate to see the strength and depth of UK motorsport diluted just because the suits want more of a spectacle for the paying punter.

The trouble is there are too many series with small grids. Larry, would you rather race in a series with 8 or 10 entries, or one with 20 or 30?

I would have thought that it is much better to have fewer series with better grids not for the "suits" benefits but for the drivers.

Also, do not forget the relationship between the paying punter and the competitor is a symbiotic one - the more paying punters, the more likely entrants are to get sponsors. The more sponsors, the more people racing so bigger grids. Unless, of course, you dilute them by having too many championships.

[Mike Holmes]

That's the whole point Andrew, every year you go to race meetings and you see races with very small grids, The MSA make a big thing about championships having to maintain an "average" grid of 16+ for the season but nothing is done. I suspect one of the reasons is there are some quite high profile series (T-Cars, Seat Cup etc) that do not meet this criteria. The vested interests out there will never condone merging championships to make them ultimately stronger because they will lose control of what little they have.

[johnw]

Originally Posted by carrera

It would appear that for Pre'93 in 2006 that multiple throttle bodies are allowed, hence my calling it CT on road tyres.

Reg 5.7.6 in conjunction with 5.7.13

As Al suggested, this is a mistake. 5.7.13 will be deleted.
The free inlet manifold is aimed at cars fitting carbs in place of Injection, not the reverse.

[Andrew Hornsey]

Originally Posted by Mike Holmes

That's the whole point Andrew, every year you go to race meetings and you see races with very small grids, The MSA make a big thing about championships having to maintain an "average" grid of 16+ for the season but nothing is done.

The trouble is, if the MSA say no to a championship, they can be haulded up in front of the EU for anti competition practice. This they cannot affoard to fight.

So, the easy answer is to let the championships continue.

I don't like it, but this is the way of the world.

Andrew

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hornsey

The trouble is, if the MSA say no to a championship, they can be haulded up in front of the EU for anti competition practice. This they cannot affoard to fight.

So, the easy answer is to let the championships continue.

I don't like it, but this is the way of the world.

Andrew

In reality nobody would bother. They would just run it as a series and cut out some of the admin.

[ss_collins]

Quite simply the MSA don't have the bottle (or the ability) to cull series. It has to be done but they won't / can't to the detriment of the sport. Intersting to see that in a world where the governing body also operate the tracks this is not a problem (short ovals)

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Quite simply the MSA don't have the bottle (or the ability) to cull series. It has to be done but they won't / can't to the detriment of the sport. Intersting to see that in a world where the governing body also operate the tracks this is not a problem (short ovals)

Culling series WOULD be to the detriment of the sport.

Merging/consolidating series would be the great advantage of it.

[ss_collins]

yes to straight cull a series is a bit daft as you need to give the cars somewhere else to play.

[Woolley]

Absolutely. It's not about driving cars and competitors away, rather to get more of them in the same place at the same time.

[Mike Dodman]

Yes, far too many. However, let me make it clear that I vote as a spectator not as a racer so my opinion may be very different! I also cut my teeth back in the late 1950's when all circuit racing was very different(!)
As a spectator I want to see variety - big v little, David v Goliath stuff, rwd v fwd - anything which encourages different lines being taken and different engine sounds.
I find one-make series terribly boring and I also believe that they have hastened the rise of what I see as "bad" driving. Because the cars are so similar in performance and the "perfect" line the same for everyone, some drivers are tempted to use the "professional foul" to unsettle the driver in front, even nerf him off, in order to make up places.
That is not the motor sport I grew up loving and one of the main reasons why I rarely watch circuit racing now, preferring to watch stage rallies, speed hill-climbs, sprints, autotests and similar "grassroots" motorsport.
OK; that my opinion; now I'll duck to avoid the bullets!

[Al Weyman]

I agree with all that, go and watch some Classic Touring Car Racing Club races you will get all of that what you mentioned.

[R59]

Gordon Streeter vs Camaro's, just how it was meant to be!

Sad that we don't see many angleboxes out there doing what they used to do best.

Back to the carbs vs injection thing. In the days of Super Road Saloons, the regs allowed "type original" which does what it says on the tin, throttle bodies instead of plenum, etc... There were some of us that tried to get the rule changed to allow carbs instead of injection, but that was vetoed. Silly when you could take a Golf GTi, badge it as a "Driver" and fit twin websters. Instead of £400 to get my Nova GTE competitive, it cost be over £1400 - so much for grassroots, low cost motorsport.

Back to amagamating sickly championships, it never really works, you put two sick and dieing championships together, you get one big sick and dieing championship. There is a root cause for the series failing, and it's usually one of inflexible rules, expensive running costs (including entry fees) and p.poor promotion, not to mention a lack of camaradarie among the competitors - something we had in the early/mid 90's with Super Road Saloons. Rule changes killed it stone dead in three years.

Track Days have also had their part to play. In the "old days" you had to go racing to go on the track. Now you pay your money and wipe out your new GT3-RSR at Donington.

Money talks.

Rob.

[Al Weyman]

It was the inflexibility of both Road Saloons and Super Road Saloons, eg. no trailers and driving well thrashed vehicles home from circuits that inspired us to start the ModProd championship which was very successful and no doubt harmed both those championships. So yes you are right it was their inflexibilty that drove us to start yet another championship. What did pee me off a bit though was a short while after we first visited Coombe they more or less nicked our regs chapter and verse and started their own championship and that in turn hurt us. I think MSA should not have allowed that but there you go as has been said many times in this thread are they really empowered to step in. A Lydden based championship did the same but at least they were polite enough to ask permission to use our regs.

[jonbryant]

Well having sat through almost 2 hours worth of T-Car racing at brands yesterday, I thought struck me.

The market for drivers aged 14-16 who want to go into saloon or sportscars is going to be small. And unless I'm mistaken, we have T-Cars and Baby Ginettas (or whatever their called) who both try and cater for that precise niche market. So thats a market of say 20 drivers split between 2 championships so we have 2 grids of a poor 10 cars.

That to me is symptomatic of the problems we have.

[Al Weyman]

But thats not really that relevant in my opinion as there are not many 14-16 year olds that can afford to race those things, have you seen the entry fees? They ain't cheap.

[Ian Sowman]

Originally Posted by jonbryant

Well having sat through almost 2 hours worth of T-Car racing at brands yesterday, I thought struck me.

The market for drivers aged 14-16 who want to go into saloon or sportscars is going to be small. And unless I'm mistaken, we have T-Cars and Baby Ginettas (or whatever their called) who both try and cater for that precise niche market. So thats a market of say 20 drivers split between 2 championships so we have 2 grids of a poor 10 cars.

That to me is symptomatic of the problems we have.

Don't forget SAXMAX is new on the scene this year - first round in May - and that should have 20 cars on the grid straight off, with drivers in the 14-16 age bracket. And there is no doubt that those 20 young people wouldn't have been racing anywhere else - so that is genuine new drivers coming into the sport. So there is a positive flip side.

[JimW]

Depends a bit on whether this is going to be a sport which runs some fun races with many more races which are just "trackdays with timing" and give a nice warm feeling to more competitors or whether the aim is to operate a structured and controlled national activity which will maximise the chances of a career path for more young drivers and begin to attract increased numbers of spectators.

In spite of how that may sound, I prefer the former option but I'm not sure that I would continue to do so if I was trying to develop a circuit or any other business involved with the sport. I'm glad the sport is not professionally run but I'm not sure that is economically sensible.

(PS Just in case any of my friends who make their living out of running bits of motorsport are reading this; I mean that, while parts of the sport are professionally run (and a few are well-run), the sport overall is badly run. IMHO of course.)

Regards

Jim