Tecno F2

[John Turner]

Welcome, Joe; that looks beautifully presented!

[allenbrown]

Nice one Chris. I guess I can stop worrying.

Joe - I have quite a bit on the Staïano Tecno in 1970 from Echappement but would be most interested to learn its later history. It may explain one or two of the mystery F2 Tecnos later into the 1970s.

Is the frame stamped T00378 or does it have a chassis plate? I'm sure many of us would be interested in learning more about Tecno numbering.

Allen

[Joe Griffin]

Thanks John.

Allen, I would be interested in learning what you have from Echappement.

There are no chassis plates on any Tecno's that I know of. My chassis number is stamped on the frame. The location is on top of the cross tube that the steering rack is mounted to on the left side. You can actually see the location in one of the photos on race-cars.com. It is under the tach cable where it crosses the tube for the 2nd time. You can just make out some "dimples" in the paint.

The new book Tecno La Storia has been a great source of information for me. It includes 3 photos of Staiano in the car. The photo of the car in 1971 shows some details that are unmistakably my car. The rear suspension on my car has been modified to increase the length of the upper links. This modification can be seen in the photo. In addition, the over the top exhaust on my car is the same one that is in the photo.

The book lists my chassis number as a F3 chassis with no other details. It also states that there may have been a number of chassis which were built up as cars other then listed in the records. I would submitt that my car was one of them!

The story that I got from the previous owner is that the car was produced in August 1969. Regazzoni used this car while driving for the works at Enna. The car was then sold to Staiano who was a friend of Regazzoni. The car was used by Staiano in 70 & 71 with some help from Regazzoni in setting up the car. This included the rear suspension modifications previously mentioned which appear in the 1971 photo.

BTW the factory changed the front and rear suspension in mid 70. The rear upright castings were changed to increase the length of the rear upper links and lower the rear camber gain. I am speculating that the factory changes were used as a model for the modifications to my car. Was Regazzoni involved? Who knows?

There were 4 or 5 owners between 1972 and 1987. I do not have there names now. I will post them at a later time. The car stayed in France and was used for hill climbs. In 1988 the Car was bought by Bernard Birbes who restored the car and used it in 1992/3 to compete in the European Historical F2 Trophy. I bought the car from Birbes in 2002 and imported the car from France to the US. He also owned a F3 and F Renault car at the time I bought my car.

Joe

[phdm]

As far as I remember, Birbes has never come up with evidences substantiating his claims that this was a Regazzoni car.

According to Sheldon/Rabagliati (A record of Grand Prix and Voiturette Racing, Vol. 8), the car driven by Regazzoni at Enna-Pergusa in 1969 is T00314.

According to the same source, the cars Regazzoni drives in 1969 are T00304 (a 1968 car) and T00314, then T00314, T00804 and T00806 (only one race) in 1970.
There is no trace of T00378 in listed F2 races in 1969, 1970 or 1971.

[Chris Townsend]

Unless F1R had someone noting chassis numbers at every F2 race [which they didn't] the possibility of all sorts of other chassis numbers occuring is still present. A great many of those entries for chassis numbers will be extrapolations. The number will change when an observer sees a new one. That tells you the meeting the observer was at, not when the number actually changed at a meeting in between observations, nor the number of a car used only once or twice in between. It also won't tell you the car the plate was on [which might not be the car it's usually on, if you see what I mean] [Classic example of this, Rouen 1971. F1R just tells you that Jarier and Lauda seem to swap cars - Jarier in 712-9, Lauda in 10. Actually that's Lauda's plate on 10 and Jarier's plate on a new car, and at Mantorp, next race the plates swap back. Good race reports will give you an important detail that F1Rs bare statistics often neglect

You need to be careful with F1R's F2 records; they are best read alongside Motoring News and Autosport [where numbers sometimes differ] - because those mags had a reporter at every race even if he didn't always note chassis numbers and as many continental magazines as you can find.

Chris

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by phdm

As far as I remember, Birbes has never come up with evidences substantiating his claims that this was a Regazzoni car.

According to Sheldon/Rabagliati (A record of Grand Prix and Voiturette Racing, Vol. 8), the car driven by Regazzoni at Enna-Pergusa in 1969 is T00314.

According to the same source, the cars Regazzoni drives in 1969 are T00304 (a 1968 car) and T00314, then T00314, T00804 and T00806 (only one race) in 1970.
There is no trace of T00378 in listed F2 races in 1969, 1970 or 1971.

Race Report 3, published at the end of the 1969 season, also gives T00 314 as the number of Regga's Enna car. Eddie Guba was editor of Race Report; anyone know what magazine he was involved with? That would presumably be the source of his chassis numbers.

BTW, Staïano's car as shown in Tecno La Storia (pp216-217) is strikingly similar to Regga's T00314 as it appeared at Barcelona (p182) except that the side tanks are missing. As hillclimbs don't require large tanks, maybe it was running F3 tanks.

Joe - thanks for confirming there is no plate. I strongly suspect Tecnos never had plates as such. The frame number is stamped into a significant tube so would be hard to remove or change. Any chance of a close-up picture of that number? You could email it to allen@oldracingcars.com.

Tecno may have used any numbering on their paperwork but a journalist who knew his Tecnos would know where to look for its frame number. Observations of Tecno numbers may therefore be more dependable than those of easily swapped chassis plates.

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

Though there's nothing to stop Tecno stamping the same number onto a new frame...
As in the case of the 1971 F2 cars, reusing the previous season's FF numbers but I rather doubt their frames!
Indeed, MN noted Tecno doing 'a March' with Cevert's car in mid 1971. A new frame turned up mid season, still carrying the old number. That makes two F2 frames and one FF all with the same number. [Only five of these two rare ex Cevert cars are known to have survived...]

Just as every March F2 up to 1976 is ex Peterson, every March Atlantic ex Villeneuve, and every Ralt RT4 ex Michael Andretti [I've seen a 1986 car described as such for God's sake!!] so every Tecno up to 1970 MUST be ex Regazzoni, and everyone after ex Cevert.

Chris

[driftwood]

oohh u are awful but i like u!!

Later i will try and find the tecno car fotos i took in 97 98 ish in italy they are on the old technology photographic paper
each time i went the F2 Regga car was a "different " livery car
I have a foto of the Cevert car as well not sure which car it is but its blue with elf so it must be the real 1!!!

[Joe Griffin]

Allen,

The other owners of my car, as indicated be the FIA papers, are as follows: Staiano, Rampal, Malateste, Larret, Faure, Pascal and Birbes.

It is a little disappointing to learn that your records can not support Birbes claim that this is a Regazzoni car. I guess this should not be a big surprise since it seems that every Tecno F2 car is a Reggazzoni of Cevert car!

Cevert's car on page 182 and Regazzoni's car at Thruxton on page 176 do indeed look like the Staiano car on page 216. They all have the same rear suspension modification. I guess that was a factory mod!

After looking at the 1971 photo on page 216 a little closer, it also shows the gas charged De Carbon shocks that I got with my car.

Best Joe

[allenbrown]

I don't have all the 1970 Echappements yet but I had a look through the ones I do have this afternoon and couldn't find anything that indicates the previous history of Staiano's car. He doesn't appear that often in 1970 and I'm still trying to work out where he races first. It may be an event covered by a magazine I'm missing.

Allen

[Joe Griffin]

The book indicates that Staiano won the following hill climbs:

1970
Course du Col Bayard 26/04/70
Course de Gignac Arboras 17/05/70
Course Gignac 14/06/70
Course de Clouneaux 28/06/70
Course de Vuillafans 05/07/70
Course de Val D'Anglure 19/07/70
Course de Brides Meribel 23/08/70
Course du Forez 27/09/70
Course de Ste. Baume 25/10/70

1971
Course du Colombier 09/05/71
Course de S. Antonin 20/05/71
Course du Col d'Aubisque 23/05/71
Course d' Arette 15/08/71
Course de Dunieres 03/10/71

Joe

[phdm]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

BTW, Staïano's car as shown in Tecno La Storia (pp216-217) is strikingly similar to Regga's T00314 as it appeared at Barcelona (p182) except that the side tanks are missing. As hillclimbs don't require large tanks, maybe it was running F3 tanks.

Allen,

For what it is worth, one possible reason why the Staïano car had narrow F3 tanks is because it was indeed a Formula 3 to start with.
This would make sense and would also match the description of this chassis number (T00378) as an F3 by Beppe Bianchini in his book.
Some may have doubts about the veracity of these records but I do personally believe that the author has done a major research work by checking the individual 'Certificato d'origine' from the CSAI archives.

As far as the 'special' rear uprights (with wider top part with two pick up points) are concerned, I have seen these on various cars, not all of them being works cars. Interestingly, it is worth noting that on page 216 of said book, Staïano's car in 1970 has the early F3/F2 upright with single top pick up point (top picture) whereas it has the later model in 1971 (bottom picture).

[Joe Griffin]

I can't 100% rule out that frame started out life as a F3 frame, I can tell you that this is a F2 chassis. There are many frame differences between a F2 and an F3 car. Most of them are in the engine bay area. Remember the F3 motor was canted over 30 deg. There is quite a bit more bracing in the rear of an F2 car. A 30% canted engine would not fit in this frame. You would need to do a great deal of fitting and welding to make a F3 chassis into a F2 chassis and I see no signs of that. If the change was made it was done at the factory. The welds on the frame are consistent throughout.

Joe

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by phdm

Some may have doubts about the veracity of these records but I do personally believe that the author has done a major research work by checking the individual 'Certificato d'origine' from the CSAI archives.

I'm not doubting the veracity of these records - I agree with you that he's done a wonderful job. The problem for me and Chris as we try to "stand on the shoulders of giants" is that we don't know whether a particular identification in Tecno La Storia comes from CSAI or Tecno records, in which case it supports anything in F1R, or whether it comes directly from F1R in which case we still have just one source.

We do have one big advantage with Tecnos in that they didn't have plates that could be swapped round or kept as souvenirs by mechanics or car dealers - they have solid stampings on the frame.

So it would be a huge benefit if there was a way of knowing which of those numbers in La Storia come from 'Certificato d'origine' records. It would also be very useful to know how complete the CSAI records are, how their system worked and whether all cars racing in Italy had to have a certificato.

I wonder if Beppe Bianchini could help us with this?

Allen

[phdm]

I will ask him

[Joe Griffin]

Well, I am once again frustrated with this entire process. I do doubt the versaty of some of these records. I now find myself defending that my car is even F2 car.

I have owned and restored 9 formula cars in the past 18 years. Including a lotus 18, 31, 51C, 61, Brabham BT14, March 702, 75B, 79B and a Tecno F2. I have tried to trace the history on 4 of my cars and in every case, I have found one thing consistent with all of them. The factory records regardless on manufacture are not very reliable. They have been incomplete and in many cases admittedly wrong!

It amazes me how most factory records can show such detail on one car (down to the color) and on the one's proceeding it and following it show nothing other then the formula. I strongly suspect that if Beppe Bianchini had more information on Chassis TOO378 he would have included it in the book. I also suspect that if he did not know of some inconsistencies in the records he would not have included his statement about the probabilities of errors.

Some of you seem all to willing to blindly accept the factory records as fact and ignore what seems to be common sense to me. My car, the Staiano car is a F2 car. I could write a book on the many differences that differentiate a Tecno F3 car from a F2 car. Please look at the photos on pages 305 and 307 of the Tecno la Storia book and see the differences for yourself. The chassis, engine, gearbox, uprights, suspension, drive shafts, gauges etc. are all different.

It seems quite improbable to me that Staiano took delivery of a 1969 Tecno F3, Chassis TOO378 and somehow rebuilt it into a F2 car before the start of the 1970 hill climb season! He would have had to replace half the car as well as significantly modify the chassis! The book states that he won a total of 14 hill climbs with a Tecno F2 in 1970 and 1971, not an F3 car!

It would seem far more logical that he would have requested that the factory supply him with a F2 car with F3 style tanks in place of the two 6 gallon fuel tanks on a standard F2 car. I can't imagion any F2 hill climb car using more then 2-3 gallons of fuel. Why would he want to have the extra frontal area and the weight if it were not necessary. I find it just wrong that some of you might think my car may be a F3 car because it has F3 style fuel tanks!

As for the suspension modification on the rear of my car, the standard upright is retained! There is a steel top that is bolted on top of the mag upright. A bolt goes through the original pick-up point on top of the upright to hold it in place. Based upon the photographic evidence, it would appear that Staiano added this modification for the 1971 season along with the over the top exhaust and de Carbon shocks. Some of the photos in the book also suggest that this modification was used by the factory in the first half of the 1970 F2 season.

I am sorry for this rant; I realize that this is your sandbox and that I am just a guest. I just get very frustrated when some of you offer your cynical expert opinions as fact.

Joe

[allenbrown]

Joe

There's nothing in that post I disagree with. I can't remember the last time I blindly accepted any factory records as fact. I don't think Chris ever does and I doubt Philippe does either. But I'm sure you'll understand that we can't blindly accept an owner's assertions as fact either.

Things get debated here Joe, different opinions get stated, people speculate, heat is sometimes generated and occasionally we even come to a conclusion. But we're all guests here - nobody owns the sandbox and one opinion is no more valid than another.

Staiano's car was in Tecno works colours at the start of 1970 so my personal speculation is that it was prepared at the factory. So even if the frame was built originally as a F3 - and we only have Bianchini's data for that - it's perfectly possible that it would have been replumbed and modified for a FVA before it left the factory. Alternatively T00378 was built new for Staiano or is a previously unknown 1969 F2 car.

We need to know where Bianchini got that data. At present, it's the only documentation we have on the origins of T00378.

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

Joe

I would wholly agree with you that Stiano would not have torn apart an F3 car to build it into an F2; equally you have a demonstrable provenance back to Stiano.

To me, this means you have a 1969 F2 Tecno. The frame number corresponds to a car, identified by someone who seems to have done more research on Tecnos than anyone else, as an F3.

Clearly, as Allen has said, we need to identify the basis on which Bianchini arrived at this identification. Are his numbers based on the build record, on field observations, on the field observations of others?

All of these forms of identification can be flawed - in my experience, and clearly yours, the manufacturer's records being the most unreliable of all [though some records are more trustworthy than others]. Chevron's book-keeping was lamentable at times [or indeed deliberately neglectful].

Add to this, however, that we already know that Tecno re-used numbers [1970 FFs and 1971 F2s with the same frame numbers for example; though our evidence for this itself comes from Bianchini.] Therefore it remains possible that there was indeed a F3 carrying your number on its frame - and that Bianchini is right - at the same time as there's an F2 version and you are right.

My concern is the automatic attribution of your car as Regazzoni's. It may well have been: as I pointed out in my reply to phdm, one cannot rely on F1Rs observations, because a number of the 'observations' in the black books are in fact extrapolations from one observation to another. Whilst it's not unreasonable to do this with private owners who may have only one, or at most two cars, it's a very risky thing to do with a works team, ESPECIALLY with one as committed to volume production as Tecno.

However, the unreliability of some of those nominations of which chassis Regga used equally does not mean that your car WAS used somewhere in the gaps. Having a 1969 F2 Tecno means there's every likelihood that Regazzoni drove it somewhere, unless it was left over at the end of the season. What we have to do is try and find out where.

Forgive me if I'm being cynical, but there is an almost automatic tendency amongst some people in historic racing to attribute use by the most famous driver associated with a marque. This is especially true if they are trying to sell it. [A few years back a Chevron B39 was discovered and claimed to have been driven in short order by Keke Rosberg, James Hunt and Bobby Rahal. The only evidence we have, from reliable observation and the comment of the team owner at the time, to that observer, is that Gregg Young drove the car. This is typical.]
Clearly this is not the case with your car. Firstly you have recently bought it; secondly, there is a considerable likelihood that Reggazoni would have driven such a car. But whilst we can say on the balance of probabilities that Regga would have driven most F2 Tecnos built in 1969, we cannot actually yet demonstrate when and where, and indeed it may be impossible that we can - such is the nature of historical research. Given the degree of ambiguity that surrounds the evidence, it is unfortunate that Dirbes claimed that the car had been driven by Regazzoni. Did he have real evidence, or was he passing on an accumulated story about the car?

Underneath all the bulls*** and what passes for humour from Drifty and myself, there is actually some serious research on this site. None of us are exactly new to the business [people like Adam Ferrington and Alan Brown have been noting chassis numbers for than 30 years]; some of us are trained, professional historians who know that if possible you triangulate a source - not just one external confirmation but two, even as you accept that's rarely possible.

Please bear with us. We are not jumping to conclusions that the Tecno records are right and you wrong; equally we cannot in a moment verify the claims made for who drove your car. I think you will find there are many, perhaps hundreds, of owners who have actually got benefit out of what happens on this forum, and I hope that in time you will too. You do have to be prepared to be surprised, because one of the joys of historical research is that it all too often delivers answers for which we were unprepared.

Chris

[bianchini]

My name is Giuseppe Bianchini i am the autor of the book Tecno la Storia
Concerning the chassis numbers i have worked in CSAI( Milano) where are
Certificati d'origine, with Gianfranco Pederzani archive were are also Certficati d'origine
sometime with the name of drivers or buyers, the Autoitaliana and Autosprint were are
listed the numbers of F2 chassis. Also Sportauto (France) note the numbers and Sheldon
book. Comparing differents sources no more then the number listing in the book are
competing in F2 Championship: It is possible that some chassis F3 are transformed
in F2 in the period or some chassis omologated in in F3 are constructed in F2 for sale By
Tecno, Gianfranco Pederzani remember that some chassis F2 1968 are sold in France
in 1969 for race in hillclimb. I am happy to be in contact with peole interested to story
giuseppe

[allenbrown]

Welcome Giuseppe

Thanks for joining our discussion. Given the sources you list, I am confident that you are right about the Tecnos that appeared in F2. Your book is magnificent by the way! But a bit heavy

Would you be able to say where your information came from regarding number T00378? It is listed in your appendix as a 1969 F3 but without an owner's or driver's name. We can be pretty confident that it was Jean-Louis Staïano's F2-spec hillclimb car in 1970 but can't trace it back into 1969.

Can you let us know where you encountered this number?

Thanks

Allen

[John Turner]

Joe, It's your sandbox too; so keep jumping in.

Gentlemen, excellent last few posts which just serves to show both how complex this research is AND how worthwhile!

[Davhut]

Some intelligent and erudite posts in this particular thread. I especially like that Chris and Allen took the time and effort to make long and thoughtful responses.
I love this stuff!

[phdm]

I am glad my email to Beppe Gianchini and long telephone conversation of this morning with him have generated some worthwhile results.

I have also tried to contact Staiano but have not been successful so far. Will keep trying.

Yes there are differences between F3 and F2 chassis in particular in the engine bay but modifications are rather easy to carry out. I have in the last 10 years or so come across a few cars which had apparent F2 chassis but which had F3 numbers. I have seen a Formula France presented as an F3, another one as a Formula Ford and also a Formula Ford being rebuilt as an F3 and another F3 with a 2 litre Toyota F3 engine. A friend of mine recently bought a FF2000 Tecno. Some will say it never existed and strictly speaking it is true but the car there and in such a bad condition that is not a recent creation. It has a 1970 F3 chassis number according the CSAI archives but it also has a later 'certicato d'origine' as a FF2000.
It sometimes gets very confusing

The rear uprights were the same on F2s and F3s in 68/69. I think the rear uprights with 2 top pick up points were introduced for the 1970 season for F2s.

[phdm]

To illustrate a previous post by Allen, here are a couple of pictures of Bayard in 1970:

La Faucille




Chamrousse

[phdm]

Three locations (in yellow) where Tecno chassis numer can be found: