Are Jag incapable? - Page 2

Neil C · 21 Apr 2001, 13:49 (Ref:83076)

Mr. Mo'fat is spot on. Someone at the top of this post said this was supposed to the THE year for Jag. Who said that? Not Jag or anyone at Jaguar. It was the same people that expected Jag to be a contender in their first year, or else they would be a failure.

To those who disparage the fact that Ford/Jag has the money and is willing to spend it to become winners, well, welcome to F1 gents. You think Ferrari and the Mac's are struggling club racers?

angst · 21 Apr 2001, 14:05 (Ref:83090)

I don't doubt for a minute that Ford have the resources, but as I explained in an earlier post it's the premise of running a team like Jaguar that is the problem. I believe the same problems will hinder the progress of Toyota and Renault (and Honda if they decide to run their own team). Renault had huge resources at their disposal in the 80's but wouldn't have won the title no matter how long they tried. Decisions need to be made very quickly in F1, and F1 team cannot be run by committee. That is the problem with Jaguar/Ford. It doesn't matter how much money they throw at the problem things aren't going to improve to the extent that they can ever be true contenders.
That's my opinion. Mercedes, BMW and (soon to be proven, I am sure) Honda have got the right idea. Supply your engines to a good team(s) and leave the running of the teams to the experts. Ferrari are a different matter altogether as they always were an independent team who ad huge backing from Fiat. After Enzo died the committees took over until Jean Todt and Montezemelo took the teams autonomy back.

Run Free · 21 Apr 2001, 23:09 (Ref:83275)

Quote:

Originally posted by AMoffat
Ferrari with all that money, TGW and a cast of thousands including the best talent in every area of F1 endeavour took what, six long years to win the World Drivers Championship and five for the Constructors Championship. There's hope for Jag even if Fast Eddie isn't a patch on TGW.

"Fast Eddie" was prevented to win the WC by ferrari itself: it should have been almost ridiculous to pay TGF such a big cash only to see his second win on the first occasion, and BEFORE the Big Cash Driver!

slipstream · 21 Apr 2001, 23:55 (Ref:83322)

On a slightly different note, I read today that Niki Lauda has said that even if Jag find the full potential of their cars they will still be at best 8th to 12th on the grid. He then said that what they really needed was a new car.

The legacy of Gary Anderson lives on.

Is there any chance of being able to design and build a new chassis mid season?

Valve Bounce · 22 Apr 2001, 00:17 (Ref:83329)

Quote:

Originally posted by slipstream
On a slightly different note, I read today that Niki Lauda has said that even if Jag find the full potential of their cars they will still be at best 8th to 12th on the grid. He then said that what they really needed was a new car.

The legacy of Gary Anderson lives on.

Is there any chance of being able to design and build a new chassis mid season?

I read that too. I suppose if they had a really good designer, and lucked onto a good design, it might work? No!! I doubt it is possible. I agree with Angst on Jags problems and have said so many times. Stewart had a good management team, but Jag wanted to put their own management in place, and just didn't work. Too many cooks .............. . I think Honda, Renault and Toyota should learn from this lesson - take a good look at Williams and Mclaren management style.

**Bononi** · 22 Apr 2001, 01:18 (Ref:83342)

They're fast !!!! VB !

That's the difference between Ferrari and Mcs and Williams !!!

Williams after 3 years are back, McLaren got it back from 93 to 98 just about the engine issue...

I think Jaguar will come out with something... but those three top teams are in the bussiness for too long. SO !!! Jaguar won't be a problem for them for the next 2/3 years...

Maybe Jaguar should become a REAL british team and hire the right ones...

I'm not firing Rahal, wich I consider a truly racer...

**Peter Mallett** · 23 Apr 2001, 06:04 (Ref:83906)

Quote:

Originally posted by Valve Bounce

I read that too. I suppose if they had a really good designer, and lucked onto a good design, it might work? No!! I doubt it is possible.

Er. What about putting the engine in a Minardi chassis?

The Minardi designer did the very thing with lotus in '83. He took a bad design and built a new car which worked quite well.

Super Tourer · 23 Apr 2001, 07:55 (Ref:83919)

Somebody made a good point about the task Jag facing trying to build the car, the engine and run the team. This is where I feel they are incapable of getting it right.

Ford's success in F1 has always been as a engine builder/provider not as a team or a constructor. I think Ford are over hooked up on JAG being a leading force in F1, without looking at the big picture.

You have to say that if Honda went through all the time and expense of putting together their own test team and building an F1 test car and STILL deciding just to concentrate on being an engine supplier, that the task is too big and specialised for motor manufacturer's (Ferrari excepted) to do on their own.

To me, the whole JAG thing looks all at sea, I can't see where the improvement is going to come from. This years car looks worse on the track than last year's, so they haven't learned much from that. Irv doesn't look even slightly interested, and swapping No2 driver after a few races seems pointless....They are a shambles, lets face it.

Minardi fan · 23 Apr 2001, 08:56 (Ref:83937)

Of course the Jaguars would do better with a Minardi chassis - for Alonso to be able to qualify 18th at Imola with that LUMP in the back means a) he's bloody quick and b) the chassis is possibly the best on the grid - small, aerodynamic, compact and very light.

**Peter Mallett** · 23 Apr 2001, 09:02 (Ref:83939)

Quote:

Originally posted by Minardi fan
Of course the Jaguars would do better with a Minardi chassis - for Alonso to be able to qualify 18th at Imola with that LUMP in the back means a) he's bloody quick and b) the chassis is possibly the best on the grid - small, aerodynamic, compact and very light.

Well it is a thought because the installation must be similar to that of the cosworth and Minardi could use the cash so why not?

However Mfan. I was really referring to the talents of a certain Mr Brunner.

angst · 23 Apr 2001, 09:30 (Ref:83945)

Wasn't it Gerard Ducaroge who went to Lotus in '83 (after leaving Alfa)? Gustav was unlucky enough to be with ATS at the time.

**Peter Mallett** · 23 Apr 2001, 09:33 (Ref:83946)

Quote:

Originally posted by angst
Wasn't it Gerard Ducaroge who went to Lotus in '83 (after leaving Alfa)? Gustav was unlucky enough to be with ATS at the time.

Bugger!! You are absolutely right. My apologies for misleading you all. Still, the principal is the same.

Wrex · 23 Apr 2001, 09:46 (Ref:83950)

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
Bugger!! You are absolutely right. My apologies for misleading you all. Still, the principal is the same.

Wow Peter - I just realised I have never read anyone on this forum admitting they are wrong about something - Well done

DancingMachine · 27 Apr 2001, 08:19 (Ref:85681)

lik i said before jaguar is not geling together as a team. do u gusy remember what irvine said bout the team. LOL

he also stated that he be sacked if he doesnt perfomr this year. since he's gonna fail..whats gonna happen..is he gonna retire or be sacked or will he leave jaguar ???

and enter mc laren perhaps..then he can get back at MS ...will be fun...

SH0077 · 27 Apr 2001, 08:48 (Ref:85688)

Quote:

Originally posted by AMoffat
Well a few weeks ago people like me were complaining how Ferrari were dominating the world of F1 with TGW firmly at the wheel guiding their course.

When you look at the abysmal results at Jaguar, remember that Ferrari with all that money, TGW and a cast of thousands including the best talent in every area of F1 endeavour took what, six long years to win the World Drivers Championship and five for the Constructors Championship. There's hope for Jag even if Fast Eddie isn't a patch on TGW.

Im sure that over the next few years Jaguar will get their act together. Not with Eddie Irvine though, he will be lucky to ever finish on the Podium. Unlike Schumacher who was winning Grand Prix's every year he has been at Ferrari in that long Six year wait for the World Drivers Championship. Success breeds Success, Jaguar haven't had a glimmer yet. Eddie's not the man for Jaguar...