Some Courage news for 2007 - Page 2

The Badger · 2 Nov 2006, 11:05 (Ref:1756109)

I dont think there is anything better than a LC70 in LMP1 at the minute , apart from the obvious Audi and Peugeot . Even the Lola B06/10 has some reliability issues .

isynge · 2 Nov 2006, 11:49 (Ref:1756145)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Badger

I dont think there is anything better than a LC70 in LMP1 at the minute , apart from the obvious Audi and Peugeot . Even the Lola B06/10 has some reliability issues .

Agreed - with a Judd/Michelin combo and a Dyson level of development I'd argue the LC70 looks, at the moment, like the readily available car with the most potential.

canam · 2 Nov 2006, 21:23 (Ref:1756552)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Badger

I dont think there is anything better than a LC70 in LMP1 at the minute , apart from the obvious Audi and Peugeot . Even the Lola B06/10 has some reliability issues .

I totally disagree. Its apparent performance was flattered by the fact that it was running much softer rubber than (probably) all other competitors (in the case of the works cars)...an advantage that was good for qualifying and for the first 15-20 laps of the race. The Swiss Spirit car had the relative advantages (Judd engine, Michelin tyres) and still did not set the world alight. I think the three Courages scored virtually the same number of points in LMS as the one Creation car and less than half the number of the Pesca. To say that it was a new car in 2007...well, so were the Zytek and Creation yet they scored the points!!

It should get better in 2007 but I feel the car is very much over-rated and, for 2007, we will have at least 2 new new-spec privateer cars (Pesca and Creation) that will reveal how much the LC70 is over hyped.

I wouldn't buy one.

Tim Northcutt · 2 Nov 2006, 21:27 (Ref:1756556)

Of cars that customers cn buy and afford:

In LMP1...I'd buy a Zytek or Pescarolo

In LMP2...for the money, I'd buy a Radical, then a Lola

jhansen · 2 Nov 2006, 21:33 (Ref:1756566)

Of the cars available for purchase in P1 I'd go with the Zytek. It is fairly vertically integrated, even though it can accommodate other engine choices.

The Badger · 3 Nov 2006, 06:28 (Ref:1756812)

Your guageing the LC70 against a well sorted Zytek and Creation which is slightly unfair . It is a very quick car , as proved in the LMS this year but is having a few woes at present , and with a new engine too .

Bare in mind that a Pescarolo is a Courage C60 and has done a hell of a lot more that a Zytek or Creation or DBA , whatever you want to call it .

I reckon they will sort their stuff out come the start of next season ..... i sincerly hope so anyway .

A Lola B05/40 is a great little car as proven by ASM but the Radical has aways to go and still has reliableity issues too , than come next season im sure will be sorted too .

As for a Pescarolo being a better chassis ..... we dont know that yet at least for the new car Tim .

I wouldnt buy a Zytek at the moment . Its all stories so far and I havent seen another chassis yet ?

class4v · 3 Nov 2006, 09:07 (Ref:1756928)

Concerning tires, the LC70 of the works team never had soft tyres. Their tyre manufacturer had only 1 compound per race. I've heard even that for Le Mans they didn't have a qualifier.

Everybody knows that the Swiss LC70 had a pragmatic approach and never went for fastest lap times.

class4v · 3 Nov 2006, 09:12 (Ref:1756934)

Looks like a lot of you already know what the chassis of Creation, Zytek and Pesca,... will be like for 2007. If I was a buyer I'd wait first for the crash test results (which are different than before (steering column also)) and would test the car before making any decision.

Dauer 962 · 3 Nov 2006, 14:28 (Ref:1757154)

Quote:

Originally Posted by class4v

Concerning tires, the LC70 of the works team never had soft tyres. Their tyre manufacturer had only 1 compound per race. I've heard even that for Le Mans they didn't have a qualifier.

That’s not correct, Courage hat different compounds of Advan tyres available this year.

Find some words of Alexander Frei in German language about the Advan tyres and Courage here:

http://www.projectlemans.de/le-mans-...alexander.html

Tim Northcutt · 3 Nov 2006, 15:25 (Ref:1757178)

Quote:

Originally Posted by class4v

Looks like a lot of you already know what the chassis of Creation, Zytek and Pesca,... will be like for 2007. If I was a buyer I'd wait first for the crash test results (which are different than before (steering column also)) and would test the car before making any decision.

All three have tons of data from their previous efforts from which to draw for the new chassis....and as of now, those are the three most competitive customer cars out there...

Pesca, Zytek and Creation aren't going to reinvent the wheel here...they will use what they have learned as a platform to build the new chassis...

The crash test side of it would not concern me in the least as a potential buyer....they ultimately will pass the required crash tests...

class4v · 3 Nov 2006, 16:09 (Ref:1757205)

I've read that article, and the tire evolved during the season. And in Jarama they went for a double stint with the tires. Don't dream only Michelin has the most choice in tires and the only one who started several times in real Soft Mediums is Pesca.

From what I've heard none of the 3 chassis (tubs I mean) you're talking about Tim are manufactured yet. Zytek has no customer to launch the project, Creation is still drawing and Pesca's is in production phase

jhansen · 3 Nov 2006, 16:15 (Ref:1757208)

Quote:

Originally Posted by class4v

From what I've heard none of the 3 chassis (tubs I mean) you're talking about Tim are manufactured yet. Zytek has no customer to launch the project, Creation is still drawing and Pesca's is in production phase

We're speaking from theory anyways. Like I'm in a position to buy? lol! But if I was, I bet Zytek would be willing to sell. The most important thing about the Zytek is the aero package. The car runs well in hybrid trim, which is a good indicator of things to come. The tub will change, but the rest of the car is already well proven.

What about the Dome? Wish we could have seen it run more often this year. Especially with the Judd engine.

Dani Filth · 3 Nov 2006, 18:55 (Ref:1757308)

if I was to chose a chassis for 2007.. sorry brits.. but I would go for a french one .. Pesca first .. Courage 2nd

Tim Northcutt · 3 Nov 2006, 19:35 (Ref:1757321)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dani Filth

if I was to chose a chassis for 2007.. sorry brits.. but I would go for a french one .. Pesca first .. Courage 2nd

Interesting...

I guess my focus is on what would be competitive here in North America, and the Zytek and Creation have both been very impressive in the events they have competed in over here.

The Pesca may be the best customer car out there...on European tracks....but it hasn't been raced over here...
It dominated the LMS this year....

nor has the LC70 by Courage raced here....

If anyone is looking for results from tests or events as a barometer to measure viability (like class4v), those two choices may or may not be a safe option for a North American customer.

Creation and Zytek have competitive records on both continents....and as I said earlier, both have been very impressive and fast over here.

My first choice might just be the Zytek for that reason...

But the Pesca in head-to-head racing was the top chassis in Europe by far last year...

Just playing devil's advocate here to stir some thoughts...

class4v · 3 Nov 2006, 20:35 (Ref:1757358)

Tim,

But the difference with the Zytek and Creation in the USA and in Europe was 65 kg! In the last 2 races of the LMS they were no where compared to the Pesca and LC70, imagine what those cars could ( yes could) do in the USA.

JAG · 3 Nov 2006, 20:42 (Ref:1757363)

The Pesca was quick early in the season, but post Le Mans the LC70 seemed to have the edge, pace wise.

It will be interesting to see how quick the 2007 Pesca is.

canam · 4 Nov 2006, 10:16 (Ref:1757638)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAG

The Pesca was quick early in the season, but post Le Mans the LC70 seemed to have the edge, pace wise.

Were we looking at the same races?? Race pace over a stint? Over a race?

After Le Mans, Pesca won all races, Creation took two seconds and a fourth. In terms of poles: Pesca: 1; Creation: 1; Courage (three cars): 1.

In terms of fastest laps: Courage: 2; Creation: 1. The Courage that got the fastest lap at Jarama finished 30th! The Courage that got the Fastest lap at the Ring finished 12th!

It is widely known that the Yoko tyres were on the soft side (Donington was a prime example) and Yves Courage wanted to show how fast his car and was not too concerned about finishes--obviously. Bolting virtual qualifiers on the car does not say much about real pace--neither does finishing umpteen laps down--or not finished at all.

When the LC70s start to finish on a regular basis, we will see what true pace they have.

Dani Filth · 4 Nov 2006, 13:02 (Ref:1757721)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Interesting...

I guess my focus is on what would be competitive here in North America, and the Zytek and Creation have both been very impressive in the events they have competed in over here.

The Pesca may be the best customer car out there...on European tracks....but it hasn't been raced over here...
It dominated the LMS this year....

nor has the LC70 by Courage raced here....

If anyone is looking for results from tests or events as a barometer to measure viability (like class4v), those two choices may or may not be a safe option for a North American customer.

Creation and Zytek have competitive records on both continents....and as I said earlier, both have been very impressive and fast over here.

My first choice might just be the Zytek for that reason...

But the Pesca in head-to-head racing was the top chassis in Europe by far last year...

Just playing devil's advocate here to stir some thoughts...

#1
i'd pick a Pesca over Zytek or Creation as the pesca beat those two in 2006 and can't see a reason why it should not beat them again in 2007

#2
i'd pick a LC70(if I don't want a Pesca.. for various reasons) over the Zytek&Creation as i don't see much more potential in those two(see #1) as i "see" in the Courage ..

class4v · 4 Nov 2006, 13:55 (Ref:1757737)

Well canam, you must be working in statistics. The LC70 with the fastest lap time in Jarama didn't finish at all, a gearbox issue made them stop. The LC70 at the Ring had fuel pumps issues due to bad vibration of the engine ( that is far from having the output of the Judd GV5 S2 - Don't forget that the Swiss had only the GV5 S1).Do you really think that with major partners as Mugen and Yokohama you can decide not to work on reliability and just show pace? My experience with these kinds of companies tells me sth completely different...

Hammerdown · 4 Nov 2006, 16:55 (Ref:1757783)

Well I'll just toss this one in to see if anyone bites!

Peasca won all the races in LMS because they had the best team: the best pitstops, best reliability, best strategy, proper size tyres, but not necesarilly the fastest car.

Bit like Audi in ALMS

russ250575 · 4 Nov 2006, 16:59 (Ref:1757787)

I think its great that you all disagree/agree on which cars you have cos lets face it if we all liked the same car and all the teams ran that car would the sport be as attractive.

My Opinion..

I'd go for a Pesca based on 06 results..or Creation based on my support..I guess it would depend whos money it is

canam · 4 Nov 2006, 18:31 (Ref:1757827)

Quote:

Originally Posted by class4v

Well canam, you must be working in statistics.

Do you really think that with major partners as Mugen and Yokohama you can decide not to work on reliability and just show pace? My experience with these kinds of companies tells me sth completely different...

The stopwatch is interesting but the final finishing position is the only statistic that matters.

As regards the second comment, we will see whether these deals continue in 2007. I doubt if both come to the table for Courage and I couldn't blame them for running elsewhere.

Addtionally, if Courage was planning for finishes, then the management/planning of the team is even worse than I would have expected. Two works cars had virtually no finishes and very little points. The 'Japanese' Courage had one of the stronger line-ups in the LMS but still failed to score a reasonable points tally. Both cars were postiively trounced by the privateer Swiss Spirit.

Yoko and Mugen must be positively steaming if you are right.

Hammerdown · 4 Nov 2006, 18:36 (Ref:1757832)

Quote:

Originally Posted by russ250575

I think its great that you all disagree/agree on which cars you have cos lets face it if we all liked the same car and all the teams ran that car would the sport be as attractive.

Hmmmm. Like GrandAm maybe?

My money would be on next year's Creation with proper size tyres and the new Judd 5.5. I think in the second half of this year the Creation was more than a match for the Pesca in terms of speed, but let down by the usual stuff. Next year should address the car problems at least, but it'll be interesting to see what Henri's "advanced aerodynamics" are!

dj choc ice · 4 Nov 2006, 19:07 (Ref:1757853)

i think if courage can get the mugen engine to actually be reliable and last over the race distance my money would be on the courage's winning many of the race's but money of mine would also be on the creation next year with wider tyre's and the new judd V10 and the zytek 07S and at a fling the lister pescarolo or the lescarolo as i think it should be called has a ring to it

The Badger · 5 Nov 2006, 17:37 (Ref:1758393)

Its not down to Courage to get the engine working ..... Im kringing about what Laurence Pearce will do . Lets just wait and see what happens there ..... im sure we will hear all about cooling issues and lack of downforce again . Im much more interested in what Rollcentre will do with their chassis .

Creation would have to do a rather big rework of the rear body to take the new GV5S2 ..... as Courage are doing .

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