The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[TF110]

What's confusing is they say they have "one more" chassis. But they will use the 2012 cars at Silverstone. Then the editor note of one 2013 car at Spa. So they're using 2012's cars for the first race. But if they made 'one more' that should mean they've made 2 2013 cars, or at least will make 2. But they had 2 2012 cars, evidenced by them running 2 2012 cars at Silverstone this year (why make another 2012 chassis for 2013 if you're changing the car?). So will they have 3 2013 cars? Perhaps that's the 'one more' meaning? Also of interest to me is that they will run the double rear wing at LeMans ?

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by TF110

WAlso of interest to me is that they will run the double rear wing at LeMans ?

Yes, but they're quick to point out they will be an iteration of the previous configuration given the drag associated with them.

[TF110]

They must have cut the drag with a new solution. Or possibly with a conjunction of the new front aero reducing the drag they could afford to run it giving them a better downforce level without sacrificing straight line speed?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

So will they have 3 2013 cars? Perhaps that's the 'one more' meaning?

According to http://www.racingsportscars.com/type/Toyota/TS030.html three TS030 chassis were built in 2012.

• TS030-01: destroyed in testing and converted to demo car
• TS030-02: #7 car in Le Mans
• TS030-03: #8 car in Le Mans and (supposedly) #7 car in WEC rounds after Le Mans

So in Silverstone Toyota can use the TS030-02 and TS030-03 chasis. However, that means that they will not have a spare chassis in the race.

Toyota has one 2013 chassis at the moment, which is used for testing. I guess that by Spa they will finish the second chassis and by Le Mans they will have three chassis. Of course this assumes that they use the testing chassis as spare chassis. "One more" could also mean that they will build four new chassis in 2013?

Audi typically builds a lot more chassis as they use dedicated chassis for their test cars. According http://www.racingsportscars.com/type/Audi/R18.html Audi has 7 2011 R18 chassis and 8 2012 R18 chassis.

[eps]

Interesting though that they don't say how many millimetres, could be 50,000 of them!!

I'm looking forward to Silverstone - tix arrived yesterday

[TF110]

I took 'one more' as having 3 cars as they had two (2012) cars since one was written off. So possibly only one spare and they use the testing car in the race. If that's not the case then I guess 4 chassis' is reasonable. The reason I doubt the 4 amount is the budget they keep speaking of. Perhaps they're using Spa as a test to see what the new chassis is in terms of performance compared to the 2012 like Audi is doing at Sebring.

[Rennen]

[QUOTE=PascaLM;3213251]As the last season started, you claimed to be intrigued by the choice of the Audi's flywheel hybrid system. Still the same today ?
We were astonished because this solution don't have the right levels of density and power. Theirs is rather heavy and much less powerful than ours. But you should ask them why they chose it.

Gwyillion, beat me up at the end of last season... Stating 'the only difference between the Audi Hybrid system and the Toyota's was the storage'!

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Rennen

Gwyillion, beat me up at the end of last season... Stating 'the only difference between the Audi Hybrid system and the Toyota's was the storage'!

I must say that I am not necessarily convinced by Vasselon's statement. It's honestly difficult to make a proper comparison between the supercapacitor energy storage system used by Toyota and the electric flywheel system used by Audi as key figures such as actual mass, power, power density, or energy transfer efficiency are simply missing (or not communicated). In that respect, I wonder how Vasselon can make the above claims without actually knowing the relevant specs of the energy storage system used by the competition.

Interestingly, the WHP (Williams Hybrid Power) electric flywheel system used by Audi is "marketed" as having the main benefits of "a high power density and correspondingly low mass, high efficiency energy transfer to and from the e-storage, the ability to continuously deep power cycle and an insusceptibility to performance or life degradation over a wide range of operating temperatures" (source: Williams F1 website).

How this compares to the supercapacitor solution is open for debate.

Once again, it's objectively difficult to compare the two solutions without having all the relevant figures available.

[gwyllion]

The power number is known: 300 hp for Toyota vs 200 hp (150 kW) for Audi. We also know that the Toyota solution operates at 700-750 Volt.

All the other specifications (capacity, weight, efficiency, ...) are indeed a mystery. I thought that the common consensus was that the Toyota/Nisshinbo supercapacitors are heavier than the Audi/WHP flywheel, but more powerfull.

[GTfour]

PascaLM, also a big thumbs up from Holland for your translating work.

[TF110]

Toyota is back testing, this time at Motorland Aragon in Spain.

[TF110]

This is a good read, it's in Japanese, but has great information http://www.sports-carracing.net/2013...130306special1

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by TF110

This is a good read, it's in Japanese

....


You're a funny character, aren't you ?

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by GTfour

....


You're a funny character, aren't you ?

I must admit that the reading is quite "challenging" for a non-native Japanese speaker like me. "Google translate" might help, but the machine translation always produces... well... weird results.

I in particular like this particular passage:
"TS030 or faster in 2013? An equation that rabbit is successful, I wonder fast TS030 in 2013?"

Putting jokes aside, I have not discovered new things about the TS030 after taking the time to decipher the machine translation produced thanks to Google.

Is there a native Japanese speaker on this forum ?

[deggis]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Is there a native Japanese speaker on this forum ?

As his nick says: http://tentenths.com/forum/member.php?u=25888

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

I must say that I am not necessarily convinced by Vasselon's statement. It's honestly difficult to make a proper comparison between the supercapacitor energy storage system used by Toyota and the electric flywheel system used by Audi as key figures such as actual mass, power, power density, or energy transfer efficiency are simply missing (or not communicated). In that respect, I wonder how Vasselon can make the above claims without actually knowing the relevant specs of the energy storage system used by the competition.

Interestingly, the WHP (Williams Hybrid Power) electric flywheel system used by Audi is "marketed" as having the main benefits of "a high power density and correspondingly low mass, high efficiency energy transfer to and from the e-storage, the ability to continuously deep power cycle and an insusceptibility to performance or life degradation over a wide range of operating temperatures" (source: Williams F1 website).

How this compares to the supercapacitor solution is open for debate.

Once again, it's objectively difficult to compare the two solutions without having all the relevant figures available.

HAHAHA

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Putting jokes aside, I have not discovered new things about the TS030 after taking the time to decipher the machine translation produced thanks to Google.

I also did not find any "great" new information in the google translation of that article. Except maybe that the exhaust of the 2013 engine was changed to give it more mid range torque and that they worked on its reliability.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Rennen

HAHAHA

Well... I am not quite getting your point, but it would seem my few words did generate some joy. I trust this is a good sign

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

I must admit that the reading is quite "challenging" for a non-native Japanese speaker like me. "Google translate" might help, but the machine translation always produces... well... weird results.

I in particular like this particular passage:
"TS030 or faster in 2013? An equation that rabbit is successful, I wonder fast TS030 in 2013?"

Putting jokes aside, I have not discovered new things about the TS030 after taking the time to decipher the machine translation produced thanks to Google.

Is there a native Japanese speaker on this forum ?

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I also did not find any "great" new information in the google translation of that article. Except maybe that the exhaust of the 2013 engine was changed to give it more mid range torque and that they worked on its reliability.

Well, I read it a couple of times. So, this is what I got from the article that's new to me.

-New exhaust change for torque. You also noticed this.
-Under 100kg for the engine. I haven't read that before.
-No smoke under braking at the test. This was present even at Fuji last year.
-They use Akebono brakes. Haven't heard they were using those before (McLaren use them).
-(Rabbit)Hare vs Turtle. We all know this story. The 'Rabbit' is the hare (Toyota), Audi the turtle.
-One safety car outside LeMans. The article seems to suggest the FIA will switch back to one safetycar.
-21 days of testing planned. Haven't read the day amount anywhere before.

Maybe that's not "great" for many. But for me (a Toyota follower) it is great.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

(Rabbit)Hare vs Turtle. We all know this story. The 'Rabbit' is the hare (Toyota), Audi the turtle.

One may wonder if associating the Rabbit/Hare with Toyota and the Turtle/Tortoise with Audi is entirely appropriate

Which of the two is the quickest ?
Which of the two is the most over-confident ?
Which of the two is the most sober ?
Which of the two is the most prudent ?
Which of the two is the most perseverant ?
[...and the list may go on]

... and the fable ends with the Turtle/Tortoise winning the race against the Rabbit/Hare if I am not mistaken.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

Well, I read it a couple of times. So, this is what I got from the article that's new to me.

-New exhaust change for torque. You also noticed this.
-Under 100kg for the engine. I haven't read that before.
-No smoke under braking at the test. This was present even at Fuji last year.
-They use Akebono brakes. Haven't heard they were using those before (McLaren use them).
[...]
-One safety car outside LeMans. The article seems to suggest the FIA will switch back to one safetycar.
-21 days of testing planned. Haven't read the day amount anywhere before.

Maybe that's not "great" for many. But for me (a Toyota follower) it is great.

Thanks for pointing out.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

One may wonder if associating the Rabbit/Hare with Toyota and the Turtle/Tortoise with Audi is entirely appropriate

Which of the two is the quickest ?
Which of the two is the most over-confident ?
Which of the two is the most sober ?
Which of the two is the most prudent ?
Which of the two is the most perseverant ?
[...and the list may go on]

... and the fable ends with the Turtle/Tortoise winning the race against the Rabbit/Hare if I am not mistaken.

Of course that story is full of good teachings. Don't think the sportscar racing website was trying to get into all that. But I do understand that Toyota needs to be a rabbit and audi is more like the turtle.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

- Under 100kg for the engine. I haven't read that before.

In Le Mans technical preview from last year Sam Collins wrote the following:

Little is known about the TS030′s engine other than it produces more power than the RV8K used by Rebellion racing, is 20kg lighter and has a lower crankshaft centreline.

According to the technical specifications the RV8KLM engine weighs "around 120 kg". You can do the math

Originally Posted by TF110

-No smoke under braking at the test. This was present even at Fuji last year.
-They use Akebono brakes. Haven't heard they were using those before (McLaren use them).

I doubt that the switch from Brembo to Akebono will yield a performance increase. It seems to be another case of selecting a Japanese supplier out of national pride.

BTW Akebono is listed on http://www.toyotahybridracing.com/partners/ and the logo can be seen clearly on http://www.toyotahybridracing.com/wp...jm1321fe17.jpg.

Originally Posted by TF110

-One safety car outside LeMans. The article seems to suggest the FIA will switch back to one safetycar.

Not according to the 2013 WEC sporting regulations on the ACO website and on the FIA website.

For the Le Mans 24 Hours, there will be 3 safety cars, and for the other Events in the Championship, 2 safety cars, unless the specific regulations of each Event provide otherwise in case of particular local circumstances.

The Le Mans supplementary regulations also takes about 3 safety cars:

The 3 safety car will start from their positions (map in the appendix of this regulation) with its orange lights on and will join the track regardless of where the race leader is.

If the rules have changed, this would indeed be some news.

Originally Posted by TF110

-21 days of testing planned. Haven't read the day amount anywhere before.

Thanks. Good find.

[MyNameIsNigel]

The safety car rules have always been a bit confusing to me. I would hope the ACO will find a way to revise these SC rules in the near future. I don't mind the 2 or 3 safety cars which are justifiable for safety reasons (especially at LM), but I would at least like to see the different SC groups be regrouped prior to resuming the race as many races have been affected in an artificial way as a result of cars being stuck behind different safety cars.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

In Le Mans technical preview from last year Sam Collins wrote the following:
According to the technical specifications the RV8KLM engine weighs "around 120 kg". You can do the math

That would be 100kg. Article here says it's less than that.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I doubt that the switch from Brembo to Akebono will yield a performance increase. It seems to be another case of selecting a Japanese supplier out of national pride.

No, they said the braking was better and the smoke under braking has disappeared.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

BTW Akebono is listed on http://www.toyotahybridracing.com/partners/ and the logo can be seen clearly on http://www.toyotahybridracing.com/wp...jm1321fe17.jpg.

Still a change. The article was dated the 21st of February. Also on their website that you just linked to they have Advics as a sponsor as well. A braking system supplier. And Aisin, another braking system supplier. Does that mean they use their brakes?

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Not according to the 2013 WEC sporting regulations on the ACO website and on the FIA website.

The Le Mans supplementary regulations also takes about 3 safety cars:


If the rules have changed, this would indeed be some news.
Thanks. Good find.

Look at the story date, February 21st. Your first link is from December of 2012. So the ruling could have changed in the meantime.