LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by dmcga

Ibanez Racing Orecas to be rebadged as Wolf before a planned Wolf-designed LMP2 coupe in '16

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/0...ez-racing.html

On one hand the ACO says it's "tough" that all these new coupes are coming out just before the new ruleset in '17 according to Marshall's interview. On the other it says it's going to collaborate with current manufacturers to create the next ruleset. I have to believe this has to result in very minimal changes to LMP2 as we currently know it, at least as far as the chassis is concerned.

I am thinking that the current new chassis will still be legal. An engine rule change and some aero/body changes should be in the works.








L.P.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

No you make no sense. The new rules will not be that far of a departure from the current rule set. The car specs will change somewhat, but the general class and sporting structures will not.






L.P.

Hmm, I cant see where I dont make sense... So I was talking the future regs, you mentioned paragraph 3. The future regs arent even written yet. Wheres this paragraph 3? The current regs aren't an exact precedent of the future car specs. Hey, like you said, there can be "change somewhat"; so "manufacturer bodywork" may be in there. No one knows yet. But its noted that at least GM want this. Thats not an insignificant change! Not sure why youre bringing up general class or sporting structure. Im speaking strictly about the cars appearance and tech backing.

Anyway in news, kcmg are first to purchase oreca's new 05 coupe!

Edit-spelling

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Chiana

This has been said millions of times before, but LMP1 should only come out for those big three events, not the full series. Leave those to Taylors and Jim France Expresses and whoever they have up there racing those 'Corvettes'. And before anyone comes to say "but they would rob out the biggest events of the year and show middle finger to regular entries" guess what
A) it happened in ALMS for X-15 seasons and everybody thought it was great, deal with it

No, at that point it was pretty obvious that ALMS was in decline.... the only time the series was really strong was when it had proper full-time factory entrants, from the moment they were gone the series was only a shadow of its former self.

There is nothing to be gained for the series by allowing P1s in a few cherry-picked events. Sure, it might help those events, but the series as a whole would only be diminished by it.

Even if it would make sense financially, I can't see it happening as long as Jim France is in charge of things. If he was interested in making money, he sure as heck wouldn't be playing around in sportscar racing. Things might change if there is a chance in leadership and the rest of the France clan decides to not bother anymore, but until that happens P1s at Daytona, Sebring and Petit are a complete pipe-dream.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Herein lies the TUSC dilemma.

P1 costs are ridiculous—totally unjustifiable for a North American regional series. There just isn't he PR return for a hundreds-of-millions program.


There really is no good solution that I can see. Either TUSC picks lame, spec, FIA P2 chassis (and lets GM add "Corvette" bodywork and dumbs down all the rest of the cars to match) or TUSC goes with its own chassis, which I cannot imagine will be very good because no manufacturers will be able to afford to compete. Maybe GM will get an exclusive contract to produce "Gen 4 'Corvette' Daytona Prototype" chassis and "Corvette" engines and the whole series will become a glorified PC class.

Whatever happens ... I fear the kind of solution we need is beyond the kind of managers we have.

With Ford and GM both in GTE, maybe a GT-only series should be looked at again. Perhaps with a kind of GTE+ where the cars are allowed more engine performance.

[Koenigsegg]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

I am thinking that the current new chassis will still be legal. An engine rule change and some aero/body changes should be in the works.

I can also see them saying that they can continue with their own tub as long as they want. But when they design a new(-ish) car, then they must use the common spec tub.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by dmcga

Ibanez Racing Orecas to be rebadged as Wolf before a planned Wolf-designed LMP2 coupe in '16

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/0...ez-racing.html

Okay we sorta knew it was coming, but now there will be three titles for the same exact chassis

1) Oreca 03
2) Alpine A450
3) Wolf GB08

Dear lord. At least with fake names of Morgan, Mazda, Ligier etc there are no alternative calling titles for the same car.

[Accident]

Originally Posted by Chiana

B) those regulars still have their own little class to play with in those events so it's not technically robbing anything

Those DP/P2 teams would be "robbed" of the headline though. "Corvette wins Sebring 12 hour." Sure it would be a "lie" and yeah they could still win it in their class, but way fewer people remember those, and they don't make headlines on anything other than specialist sites.

Some will probably say something like "oh who cares if they want the credit they should build P1s" but telling your full season entrants/manufacturers to **** off for the P1s isn't a great way to keep relations up.

When your top class has Ford supported Ganassi and multiple GM approved/supported teams, it's not quite as easy to shove them aside to make room for Audi and them as it was when you had 2 privateer teams as a top class (with one of them not even expected to make it past the halfway point anyway).

Originally Posted by Speed-King

With Ford and GM both in GTE, maybe a GT-only series should be looked at again. Perhaps with a kind of GTE+ where the cars are allowed more engine performance.

Try to lure the Viper back out before it's not too outdated as well and you have about the perfect top class...

[Accident]

Edit: Double post...

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

P2 in FIA is Much different than P2 in TUSC. One is an entry-level class for privateers, the other is the top class in a national series for pro and factory teams. FIA P2 can be low-cost, low-maintenance, mostly-spec chassis and still succeed because all they really are is filler.

FIA can create a wonderful P2 spec for FIA, but it might not be the best thing for GM—oh, I mean TUSC. I am not sure TUSC fans would take well to more spec chassis with different fenders.

The only reason I can imagine for TUSC bending over for GM is $$$$$$$. NASCAR is tired of paying to put races on TV for no audience, but GM thinks it can win enough with "Corvettes" to get some PR benefit, so GM is buying off TUSC.

Telling GM, "Build a P1" is not any kind of a solution. First off, where would it race? Not in TUSC, where it would be alone. Not in WEC, because there is so little U.S. awareness of WEC. Who would they race? In the U.S. ... no one. Hoping Audi would spend a ton of money to race in TUSC just to beat one or two GM P1s is pretty far-fetched. What would Audi gain? Unless Toyota, Porsche, and Nissan all came, it would be a wasted effort (Audi already beat everything in North America for a decade.)

So why would Porsche, Audi, Nissan, and Toyota double their investments to race in TUSC—a series which usually draws fewer viewers then even IndyCar? Well, they wouldn't.

I am not a huge TUSC supporter, but I can see the business side of TUSC's dilemma: if they adopt lame P2 regs which work for a WEC underclass but not as a top class in North America, the series loses money ... like it has any to lose. If they go their own way and still don't please the fans, they lose money ....

What really scares me is that FIAS is seemingly so far from deciding the P2 technical regs when manufacturers are going to have to start designing and building before the start of 2016 to get everything tried and tested and running right in time to make sales for the 2017 season.

No team is going to want to invest in a couple chassis and a to=n of spares if it doesn't have a bunch of track testing (I'd bet ESM would echo this right now) and look at Dome—a very experienced firm which designed and built a car which so totally didn't work they had to cancel its entire season. I cannot see the entire P2 customer base everywhere saying, "Sure, sell us unfinished, untested chassis which may or may not be seriously flawed—we'd love to give you our money for hopes and dreams."

This might be an exaggeration ... but aren't we all thrilled with those 2016 GTE/GT3 merger rules ... oh, wait, They never happened because the FIA couldn't get everybody on the same page.

Everyone jokes about the FIA laying down the law globally, but really, all they do is follow the money. Audi and Peugeot ruled the world because the rules made diesels unbeatable, until Peugeot had to go, so FIA kissed Toyota's butt to keep WEC alive, changing the rules to allow Toyota to compete—Audi allowed it because without Toyota they had no World Championship.

In all the world only NASCAR can really Lay Down the Law. All the other sanctioning bodies are beholden to factories, or broke. (Even PWC: they are doing really well, now that they got that huge influx of money for running a pure-Porsche class (same as kept ALMS alive for a couple seasons.)

We saw bad management kill ALMS and Rolex ... we saw it almost kill ACO in the early '90s until GTP came along. Bad management killed PSCR, which led to the mismanaged ALMS and Rolex ...

We could well see more of the same—politics and greed and power-plays and ego could well continue to choke a sport which is already struggling.

Nice doom and gloom post!

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Herein lies the TUSC dilemma.

P1 costs are ridiculous—totally unjustifiable for a North American regional series. There just isn't he PR return for a hundreds-of-millions program.

But ... If TUSC wants to do a P1-Light sort of show, a P2 chassis with a little more power and a little more freedom to innovate ... where do they get the chassis?

They are stuck with a Daytona Prototype scenario, where they have basically one or two companies building a spec chassis for a single series, which is lousy return on investment, which means the chassis have to be simple and durable instead of cutting-edge and globally competitive.

If FIA 2017 P2 squeezes out current P2, then in 2017 every car in TUSC will have an obsolete chassis with no factory support—a bunch of aging, warmed-over DPs with tacked-on aero and a couple aging P2s with no spares available.

Further, TUSC has been promising fans a fresh start in 2017, with exciting cars which are modern enough to attract the interest of the "Cars Are the Stars" crowd. If they go with an FIA P2 which is more spec than the current model (more shared chassis parts, basically a DP-style "many builders, one chassis" situation) then fans will howl ... or just leave.

However, if they announce an extension of DP (seeing as those will be the only chassis with any kind of manufacturer support, through Riley and Coyote) fans will not even howl, they will just depart, disgusted.

We all wish TUSC really did run The Best Cars in the World, which I think most will agree only WEC runs now. And I hope most realize that economically that won't work for TUSC, Porsche, Nissan, Audi, or Toyota so it just ain't happening.

We all wish Sebring and Watkins Glen and Petit and Daytona attracted the best cars and teams from around the globe, but it is impossible right now because FIA is catering to high-dollar European and Asian manufacturers who see the series as a private playground.

There really is no good solution that I can see. Either TUSC picks lame, spec, FIA P2 chassis (and lets GM add "Corvette" bodywork and dumbs down all the rest of the cars to match) or TUSC goes with its own chassis, which I cannot imagine will be very good because no manufacturers will be able to afford to compete. Maybe GM will get an exclusive contract to produce "Gen 4 'Corvette' Daytona Prototype" chassis and "Corvette" engines and the whole series will become a glorified PC class.

Whatever happens ... I fear the kind of solution we need is beyond the kind of managers we have.

There IS a solution for TUSCC.

Get rid of prototype racing until becomes viable again. GTE/GTLM racing is hot right now.

I would be sad to see prototypes go, but what else is there to do? Look at VIR. It was crazy good as a GT only race. Lots of fans, good racing, etc.

Why do we need prototypes anyway? You could run GT cars with good enough aero at the speeds prototypes run.

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by Chiana

This has been said millions of times before, but LMP1 should only come out for those big three events, not the full series. Leave those to Taylors and Jim France Expresses and whoever they have up there racing those 'Corvettes'. And before anyone comes to say "but they would rob out the biggest events of the year and show middle finger to regular entries" guess what
A) it happened in ALMS for X-15 seasons and everybody thought it was great, deal with it
B) those regulars still have their own little class to play with in those events so it's not technically robbing anything
C) if everybody starts *****ing and crying, fine leave Daytona to their little wave-by free lap shootouts, but Sebring and/or PLM should have the relevance back

Now it would be too big of a pipedream to hope ACO and FIA to make those big races part of the WEC LMP1 season because we know their 'desires' and obsessions well enough, but even as one-off rounds they would attract couple of the factory cars.

I agree with you. Allow LMP1 for Marquee events. If less than 4 P1 cars don't show up, before a deadline then cancel P1 for that event.

Problem is that the WEC has it in it's mind that it NEEDS F1 level paddock facilities (which it doesn't). The rich people at the top of the FIA food chain HATE going to Sebring because it does not have the swanky facilities of Austin.

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

No, at that point it was pretty obvious that ALMS was in decline.... the only time the series was really strong was when it had proper full-time factory entrants, from the moment they were gone the series was only a shadow of its former self.

There is nothing to be gained for the series by allowing P1s in a few cherry-picked events. Sure, it might help those events, but the series as a whole would only be diminished by it.

Even if it would make sense financially, I can't see it happening as long as Jim France is in charge of things. If he was interested in making money, he sure as heck wouldn't be playing around in sportscar racing. Things might change if there is a chance in leadership and the rest of the France clan decides to not bother anymore, but until that happens P1s at Daytona, Sebring and Petit are a complete pipe-dream.

At this point those races by themselves ARE more important than the series. It's the same thing in IndyCar. The 500 is worth more than all the other races combined (except Long Beach).

Note on Daytona, there is also a Safety issue with Banking and P1 cars (same goes for Running IndyCar at Daytona on the Oval). The cars would be too freaking fast. Put too much downforce on them to slow them down and they would zip through the infield too quickly.

The banking at Daytona is steep because it was built with low downforce Stockcars in mind, not high aero open wheel or prototypes.

[Maelochs]

Danathar posts: "At this point those races by themselves ARE more important than the series."

I strongly disagree.

For teams running the full season, the marquee events are what the sponsors sign on for. Nobody forks over big bucks for the TV exposure from VIR. Sponsors want the TV exposure their products will get at the Rolex 24, Sebring, and PLM.

If a bunch of P1 cars dominated those races, it would diminish exposure for the teams which the series needs to survive for the rest of the season.

I sincerely doubt GM would appreciate fighting for a non-podium position. I sincerely doubt Ford would appreciate racing for fourth or fifth at best. I sincerely doubt a lot of smaller teams could even get a check at all if they would be would be "best of the rest" at best.

Even GTLM teams would suffer, because GM and Ford would demand TV coverage after the P1 coverage, so GTLM would effectively be third or fourth on the time allocation list.

People need to think not in terms Just of what the fans would like (though that is important) but also what series sponsors, team sponsors, and teams need; what the TV network needs.

The idea that ratings would shoot up to the sky if a few P1 teams came over really doesn't make sense. Look at ratings for the CotA WEC race—not even as good as the Tudor race, and neither was all that great (though the condensed replay on Sunday did quite well, because it followed NFL football.)

Seriously, who would benefit financially, and how, from having a few P1 car cross over for a few races? Who would make less?

Another thing: all those P1 teams are on a schedule to develop their next season's cars. What would it benefit Porsche or Audi to totally tromp the field at the Rolex, which would be very expensive (air freight both ways for the whole operation for a few days running) and why would they risk breaking a car or hurting a driver for a non-points race which had in fact Nothing to do with the WEC, which the only thing they care about?

In fact, the only thing those teams Really care about is Le Mans, though naturally as racers they want to do as well as possible everywhere. Anything which isn't going to advance that WEC program or help a Le Mans win is Not going to happen.

Sure, Audi rents Sebring for testing—and we all know why. It is a really tough test track with a variety of corners and surfaces, which really beats a car. Audi likes to test there because it is a tough test. They have no reason to want to Race there if it is not a WEC points event.

Also, look at the schedules. Sebring is a few weeks before the season opener at Silverstone, so the teams would have to finish Sebring on the 21st, pack fast and pay airfreight to get the cars back to Europe early the next week, then have ten days or so to clean up, repair, replace, and repack for Silverstone.

Not impossible, but expensive, and it would put a lot of load on the team for no points and no other benefit. Much better to rent a test track somewhere close and do testing where the potential for damage would be a whole lot lower.

Watkins Glen is two weeks after Le Mans, which means teams would basically have to rush like mad to get everything repaired and ready for Watkins Glen, and again, it would have to be air freight—and for no benefit.

Petit Le Mans is a week before Fuji, which means teams would need to risk missing Fuji to run Petit, for no points, no benefits, nothing.

Basically, the whole "Bring over the P1s" idea benefits no one except a very small group of fans, the majority of which will likely watch the races anyway, but will cost everyone except the fans huge amounts of money.

I want to see P1 cars racing in North America, but I also want sports car series to make sound business decisions, or we end up with another ALMS—great racing and going broke.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

With Ford and GM both in GTE, maybe a GT-only series should be looked at again. Perhaps with a kind of GTE+ where the cars are allowed more engine performance.

I really do not see this happening!







L.P.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Danathar posts: "At this point those races by themselves ARE more important than the series."

I strongly disagree.

For teams running the full season, the marquee events are what the sponsors sign on for. Nobody forks over big bucks for the TV exposure from VIR. Sponsors want the TV exposure their products will get at the Rolex 24, Sebring, and PLM.

If a bunch of P1 cars dominated those races, it would diminish exposure for the teams which the series needs to survive for the rest of the season.

I sincerely doubt GM would appreciate fighting for a non-podium position. I sincerely doubt Ford would appreciate racing for fourth or fifth at best. I sincerely doubt a lot of smaller teams could even get a check at all if they would be would be "best of the rest" at best.

Even GTLM teams would suffer, because GM and Ford would demand TV coverage after the P1 coverage, so GTLM would effectively be third or fourth on the time allocation list.

People need to think not in terms Just of what the fans would like (though that is important) but also what series sponsors, team sponsors, and teams need; what the TV network needs.

The idea that ratings would shoot up to the sky if a few P1 teams came over really doesn't make sense. Look at ratings for the CotA WEC race—not even as good as the Tudor race, and neither was all that great (though the condensed replay on Sunday did quite well, because it followed NFL football.)

Seriously, who would benefit financially, and how, from having a few P1 car cross over for a few races? Who would make less?

Another thing: all those P1 teams are on a schedule to develop their next season's cars. What would it benefit Porsche or Audi to totally tromp the field at the Rolex, which would be very expensive (air freight both ways for the whole operation for a few days running) and why would they risk breaking a car or hurting a driver for a non-points race which had in fact Nothing to do with the WEC, which the only thing they care about?

In fact, the only thing those teams Really care about is Le Mans, though naturally as racers they want to do as well as possible everywhere. Anything which isn't going to advance that WEC program or help a Le Mans win is Not going to happen.

Sure, Audi rents Sebring for testing—and we all know why. It is a really tough test track with a variety of corners and surfaces, which really beats a car. Audi likes to test there because it is a tough test. They have no reason to want to Race there if it is not a WEC points event.

Also, look at the schedules. Sebring is a few weeks before the season opener at Silverstone, so the teams would have to finish Sebring on the 21st, pack fast and pay airfreight to get the cars back to Europe early the next week, then have ten days or so to clean up, repair, replace, and repack for Silverstone.

Not impossible, but expensive, and it would put a lot of load on the team for no points and no other benefit. Much better to rent a test track somewhere close and do testing where the potential for damage would be a whole lot lower.

Watkins Glen is two weeks after Le Mans, which means teams would basically have to rush like mad to get everything repaired and ready for Watkins Glen, and again, it would have to be air freight—and for no benefit.

Petit Le Mans is a week before Fuji, which means teams would need to risk missing Fuji to run Petit, for no points, no benefits, nothing.

Basically, the whole "Bring over the P1s" idea benefits no one except a very small group of fans, the majority of which will likely watch the races anyway, but will cost everyone except the fans huge amounts of money.

I want to see P1 cars racing in North America, but I also want sports car series to make sound business decisions, or we end up with another ALMS—great racing and going broke.

Sums it up fairly well.











L.P.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by TF110

Hmm, I cant see

You can give a person glasses but you can't make them wear them. If you had read the current rules then MAYBE that paragraph would have been beneficial in understanding the possibility of werks cars in P-2. And that they are not strictly prohibited. Which gets back to the 'tech' from which they come! But I digress, as it abundantly clear that this conversation is useless.







L.P.

[Deleted]

LMP1 teams wouldn't have the resources to pull those races off? Don't make me laugh Maelochs, they've done em before and can still do. The time frame at the start of the year is not particularly busy - there's weeks between the start of the WEC season. Your point on Watkins Glen is particularly amusing, how on earth can little US teams participating in Le Mans go back to States + fix their poor little GT cars or whatever in two weeks time, but multi million dollar corporate units cannot? Lol if they want to make them happen, they will. Besides, if team like Extreme Speed Motorsports can do full NAEC in addition to WEC, how can poor little Audi or Porsche or Nissan not? And Rebellion Racing has been able to do Petit Le Mans and Fuji on the same weekend by two separate teams. But no not these factory P1s apparently! Right.

Apart from maybe Toyota, the P1 manufacturers have need for larger presence in the US. I mean one of them is now even located there. But this has already been covered in length by others so I'm not gonna bother re-telling why the manufacturers would come. It doesn't matter if they're part of the championship or not.

As for TV ratings, they won't rise or fall either way, that's pretty damn obvious for everyone involved. It's not even worth making a point about it. Also comparing Austin WEC's Fox Sports 2 "ratings" to USCC's FOX ratings is utterly pointless. Even against FS1 it's incomparable. Besides WEC's not a domestic series and no-one except nerds know about it really.

Ford and GM money might not be as important as you make them to be, besides if/when Ford and Ganassi bail for GTE it's only Chevrolet in there trying to marketize those fake "Corvettes". Well I guess Mazda as well but it's not like they're really doing anything anyway. Is that GM bribe money enough to say no to P1s forever?

[Maelochs]

Some idiot, lost in negativity and obviously out of touch with any fragment of reality, posted: "Seriously, who would benefit financially, and how, from having a few P1 car cross over for a few races?"

[TF110]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

You can give a person glasses but you can't make them wear them. If you had read the current rules then MAYBE that paragraph would have been beneficial in understanding the possibility of werks cars in P-2. And that they are not strictly prohibited. Which gets back to the 'tech' from which they come! But I digress, as it abundantly clear that this conversation is useless.







L.P.

My vision is 20/20 on the situation. You present CURRENT regs as your argument. But you cant say 100% they are the same in 2 years time. But keep up the sarcasm and selective quoting. Taking words out of context, yes, that surely helps with your argument. But you are right on one thing, this conversation is useless. Were talking about two different things.

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by Danathar

There IS a solution for TUSCC.

Get rid of prototype racing until becomes viable again. GTE/GTLM racing is hot right now.

I would be sad to see prototypes go, but what else is there to do? Look at VIR. It was crazy good as a GT only race. Lots of fans, good racing, etc.

Why do we need prototypes anyway? You could run GT cars with good enough aero at the speeds prototypes run.

I've been saying this since the beginning, without LMP1 or something as exciting I'd take GTE as the top class any day over lesser prototypes.

[Dyson Mazda]

TUSC would be phenomenal with the following class setup if the GTE's were bumped to 500-550 hp motors

GTLM-Pro
GTLM-Am
GT3-Pro
GT3-Am

[MagVanisher]

I don't mind seeing TUSC becoming another GT-only series. And even though IMSA disbanded the Prototype class, there would be a time that it'll return in the form of DTM-based GTP class in which I wouldn't see it happening!

[Maelochs]

Someone needs to post a poll asking whether fans would still follow TUSC if the went with lame, spec (even more than now ) low-budget P2 in 2017, a cheesy update of the current DP, or if the series went with a GT-only format.

[MagVanisher]

I would agree on having a poll! Personally, the TUSC Prototype Class should have two types of cars.

In the perfect world, I want the class itself having P2 machinery as of now running alongside GTP cars based on DTM. Should Bandoh-san approved on having his DTM-based GT500 cars on Le Mans, it'll open up manufacturers like GM to spend their money on making a Corvette GTP based on the DTM chassis.

Of course, this thread is all about LMP2. Personally, putting manufacturer-based bodywork that doesn't do anything other than resembling a certain model is unnecessary and it'll add more cost!

[Deleted]

Going back to 'real' LMP2, and Wolf. Forget the $$$$$$$$-rebadging deal they have this season with Oreca & Ibanez, next year they are planning to bring out their own coupe - with ominous name 'Tornado'. But who's great idea was it to plan debut season for 2016, just year before the regs are gonna change anyway to whatever direction? Okay, unlike Oreca + SMP + HPD (+ Dome) debuting this year, they at least should have somewhat clear idea what the new generation P2 is supposed to be while designing the chassis and choosing engine, but still why not wait til 2017? God knows what Lord Beaumesnil and his officers decide to do with the specs behind the curtains, his interview with MP wasn't exactly the most friendly towards people 'too eager to build cars'.

Even Pilbeam's "new" open top makes more sense right now, partly because it's ages old design but also the South African series is likely gonna keep it alive as long as they want, even after ACO denies them from entering (2018 likely after grandfathered 17). Not that confidence in their arrival is too high though, sadly,,,