IMSA DPi Discussion

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by YZFrider

Let me ask all of you a two questions related to DPi.

1. Do you want to continue to see the race by race BOP? Yes or No

2. Do you want to see standard torque and power curve for the engines? Yes or No

And give me your reasons why.

Go!

1) No - I hate it, it's cheap and fake

2) No - I hate it, it's cheap and fake

Thanks for asking

As I said last year, even the spec-and-lame standard ACO concept makes me less irritated, mainly because of the above said trickery. I could even tolerate the "DPi" stuff with rebrandings if IMSA weren't so eager to prepare their wind tunnels, RPM dynos, equality committees and OEM attorney meetings every other week. There's nothing "Prototype" about it if it gets handled that way.
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...upcoming+sucks

[seanyb505]

1) Yes, because it's one of the most effective ways of making sure your biggest investor has a legitimate shot at winning, both on a race-by-race basis and for the championship.

2) No, because it's one of the most ineffective ways of making sure your biggest investor has a legitimate shot at winning, both on a race-by-race basis and for the championship.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

1) Yes, because it's one of the most effective ways of making sure your biggest investor has a legitimate shot at winning, both on a race-by-race basis and for the championship.

That biggest investor manufacturer better not have spent any of that money on the car and R&D then, as that would have been such a waste. Just direct all the resources to general marketing and make sure the checks and dinner invites are sent to Daytona Beach on regular intervals.

[TzeiTzei]

Originally Posted by YZFrider

Let me ask all of you a two questions related to DPi.

1. Do you want to continue to see the race by race BOP? Yes or No

2. Do you want to see standard torque and power curve for the engines? Yes or No

And give me your reasons why.

Go!

1. No. If it's not a spec class, then the car should make a difference. You want even perfomance differences? Use success ballast. That is at least transparent.

2. No. Are these supposed to be prototypes? Pathetic

[Maelochs]

As I understand it, GT3s are tested a couple times a season by independent drivers, so sandbagging and set-p and trickery in general. The whole idea of having the teams run their own BoP tests is obvious BS.

Every car should be tested before Daytona, before Sebring, and maybe after the Le Mans break, and set, and left alone.

Fact is, though, real racing is pretty much over. It costs too much to lose, and American factories don't see any benefit to prototype racing to promote their overall image. Therefore they race in GTE/GTLM, where waivers and BoP pretty much make all the losers into potential winners. (A lot more Camaros and Mustangs are raced than Corvettes or Ford GTs, but I don't see all that in the ads.)

NASCAR didn't come up with its formula on its own; the factories had to be completely on board with it. And it makes sense: Chevrolet doesn't want to get beat by a team which comes up with some innovation---Chevrolet wants to be able to tout the "innovations" and "developments" it gets from racing, which supposedly make their street cars better. True innovation scares the crap out of them --- it leads to losing races and it leads to increased spending, either of which could sink the program.

The only way to end the ridiculous BoP circus is to walk away from the series and let it die. Waiting for it to change is pointless ... there is zero reason for the series to change.

Race-by-Race BoP shouldn't be needed once the DPis arrive. The chassis should all be built to the regs, the bodywork will be massaged until no one has any reason to try to improve or even care----why try to develop an aero-efficient boody? Dump whatever craop you like and the series will use it as the standard, the lowest common denominator will dominate. The cars should be as equal as possible and independent testing before the Roar could ensure that ... but .....

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by Chiana

That biggest investor manufacturer better not have spent any of that money on the car and R&D then, as that would have been such a waste. Just direct all the resources to general marketing and make sure the checks and dinner invites are sent to Daytona Beach on regular intervals.

Lol who said anything about investing in car and R&D? We're trying to win here, and that only comes as a direct correlation to how many stickers/banners/airtime you have purchased.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

1. No. If it's not a spec class, then the car should make a difference. You want even perfomance differences? Use success ballast. That is at least transparent.

2. No. Are these supposed to be prototypes? Pathetic

Exactly.. success ballast is not great by any means and you rather not have it, and most certainly not in "PROTOTYPE", but at least it's not random, corrupt and forgeable like BoP is. You know who gets what when why...

Many people thought and probably still do that this constant DP-P2 trickery is entirely because of the differences within the two concepts, but it's exactly the same round by round crap and equal RPM/Aero theory they had in Grand-Am, and now will have with "DPi" and whatever

[YZFrider]

@ Maelochs. You have been a voice of reason with informative posts. But the suggestion that the factories agreed to such fake entertainment is utterly insane! Why would HPD and Mazda agree to participate and race in a series where Chevy is and will be the winner? Your losing money! Not to mention.. potential entrants looking to buy a chassis/motor will go to GM. That's not very smart! Bye bye to HPD and Mazda as they leave the series.

And from a fans perspective, who is going to watch that? That's like NBA owners agreeing to limit Stephen Curry to limit his 3 point shooting on a game by game basis. Or NFL owners telling Aaron Rodgers, you can only throw a few times a game. Insanity! Sadly if what you say is true, then our racing has become WWE. And the best course IS to let it die.

Edit: Teams and Manufacturers might as well play lotto because the randomizing of winning is just the same

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

Lol who said anything about investing in car and R&D? We're trying to win here, and that only comes as a direct correlation to how many stickers/banners/airtime you have purchased.

But there will be money spent on R&D! To get the 'stylized' OEM bodywork back to the purpose built aero #s. As to the rest of the propaganda BS in the post...







L.P.

[ApexClips]

Originally Posted by YZFrider

Edit: Teams and Manufacturers might as well play lotto because the randomizing of winning is just the same

I wouldn't call BOP'd performance "randomized" so much, but rather a (loosely) scripted ebb and flow. As politically motivated as it often is, that type of manipulation is rarely random.

[YZFrider]

^^Ah that's a much better description. Kayfabe.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by ApexClips

I wouldn't call BOP'd performance "randomized" so much, but rather a (loosely) scripted ebb and flow. As politically motivated as it often is, that type of manipulation is rarely random.

True, the manipulation itself is not random as it's political, but the values for those changed BoP specs usually seem like they were ripped from horses arse.

[Rcz]

Use a power to weight ratio?

It would based on engine type and size.

[Deleted]

They wouldn't stop at just that.

The problem is not the "baseline spec" as in what the car is originally supposed to run per regs (albeit the heavy wind tunnel and dyno tweaking do take it too far and pointless when the good old "X weight and air restrictors go per displacement ratio" makes so much more sense).

The real problem is that these values get altered on race by race basis, or session by session, with values that seem randomized, even if the reasons for making those adjustments were well politically thought in advance.

Finally, we may all give excuses on why the GT cars should or should not have this sort of constant meddling, but there are none when it comes to "prototypes", none.

[TF110]

Their bop is a joke and a lot more flawed than series around the world. The wec isn't perfect, but a fuel flow makes manufacturers strive for efficiency in their engine to get a higher amount of hp. In this series, everyone runs the same fuel type, so there's no diesel balancing to worry about. I know it's costly, but imsa should foot the bill for that. I'd rather see a set fuel amount and/or flow than turbo boost tinkering and restrictor size changes.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Maybe IMSA should split up their series into two separate championships: Endurance and Sprint (with 4-6 races each)?

Maybe Petit Le Mans should feature a 6-hour prototype race and a 6-hour GT race?

[Maelochs]

I don't think the regs favor Chevy specifically. I think they are designed to keep costs low and make sure no one can win through excellence, insight, or innovation. The idea is that every manufacturer gets an even shot at winning if they pick a good team to back, because there aren't and Jim Halls or Colin Chapmans coming up with some brilliant. out-of-the-box ideas to beat the rest of the field.

I mention Chevrolet because they were the driving force behind the Gen 3 DPs, and the most visible factory right now ... I assume they have the most money in play in the P class. I do not think the rules Favor Chevy--I think the rules Protect all the manufacturers, who are free to build and race mediocre cars which will never get better and thus, never cost more.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Maybe Petit Le Mans should feature a 6-hour prototype race and a 6-hour GT race?

No. This series needs to have consistency, and a lot of that would be based on stable event schedules, including specific events. Petit established itself right away as an event on the world stage. It has an identity, and that is based on being a multi-class race. Improve the product that runs in the event, don't change the event.

[BSchneiderFan]

Daytona, Sebring and PLM should be part of the WEC.

[GT6]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Daytona, Sebring and PLM should be part of the WEC.

Totally agree

[Maelochs]

I n a better world ... yes, and IMSA would also run regular events there as they do at CoTA. Let WEC do the 24-, 12-, and 10-hour races and let IMSA do four or six or 2:45 or whatever it likes. It works in Texas.

Not holding my breath .... WEC doesn't want to race at those tracks, and as far as I can tell doesn't want to do the distance, and certainly doesn't want to do three more races in the U.S., and certainly doesn't want to build its schedule around those events ... and the lengthy recovery period following each of those events.

What is only very slightly more probable would be for IMSA to start putting on races with the quality of cars and teams that WEC has now. Just as there was Can-Am and Interserie, there could be IMSA and WEC running at an equivalent level, one in North America and one everywhere else.

oh .... DPi.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by skycafe

No. This series needs to have consistency, and a lot of that would be based on stable event schedules, including specific events. Petit established itself right away as an event on the world stage. It has an identity, and that is based on being a multi-class race. Improve the product that runs in the event, don't change the event.

Yeah, the very well preserved identity of Petit Le Mans, thank god we still have the world class LMP1 cars going for 1000 mile distance and all the class winners earning Le Mans invites, after whole week of Road Atlanta testing in their preparations for the event! Right, right?

(DPi zzzz)

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Yeah, the very well preserved identity of Petit Le Mans, thank god we still have the world class LMP1 cars going for 1000 mile distance and all the class winners earning Le Mans invites, after whole week of Road Atlanta testing in their preparations for the event! Right, right?

I have been to a bunch of Petits, and every time I meet a bunch of people who make a big deal out of it; some use it is an annual family reunion, and quite a few go every year.

I am sure they would prefer to have WEC racing there, but those same folks are back every year regardless. I have never heard a one of them ask for any changes.

The two-by-six idea would add a day to the schedule--with double podiums, track prep, and all that. CoTA is under ten hours of racing .... and it is a really long day for a lot of people. Sebring is 12 hours of racing, but it is only 12 hours ... not 14 or 15, with all the between-race stuff.

And I have not heard many people complain much about whether the race ends by the clock or by the mileage. Sure, some do ... here, at least ... but some folks Always complain, no matter what. Most folks see Petit as a ten-hour race of the top road-racing series in North America, and that it still is ... Le Mans no longer has a Le Mans start ... i guess you won't be watching or attending any more.

[TF110]

Wec aint coming back to these places as long as Nascar runs it

[YZFrider]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I think the rules Protect all the manufacturers, who are free to build and race mediocre cars which will never get better and thus, never cost more.

If indeed DPi is THE best compromise then ideally it will work just like Gen 1 DP worked. Bringing many racer entrants to the fold because of low cost.

Now, will it attract fans? We know from history DP did not.

Let us not forget that in the strict era of DP one chassis manufacturer, Riley, became the most dominant. If this were to happen again, what then? Constant tinkering of BoP could work, but it is already done to death and not loved very much.