The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Holt

I think Le Mans will be similar to 2011

That year the Audi R18 had a slight speed advantage over the 908, about one second a lap. But the 908 could go one lap further on fuel.

I expect the same this year.

I don't think that we will see the same situation.

In 2011 Audi compensated for their fuel consumption disadvantage by doing more stints on their tyres: quadruple/quintuple stints for Audi vs triple stints for Peugeot. So even though Peugeot could go one lap further on a fuel tank, Audi spent less time in the pits. See http://trussers.blogspot.com/2011/06...ous-facts.html

Last year, Toyota was better on the tyres than Audi. In Spa the drivers of the long tail R18 explains that the car was sliding a lot because of the lack of downforce.

So if Toyota can go longer on fuel and longer on tyres, they will gain on Audi in pits. In that case, Audi has to build their gap purely on faster race pace.

I think it is much too early to rule out Toyota. We have to wait until the test day to know the pace of the two cars. Personally I suspect a very close race...

[GT6]

well that is only 4 weeks so we wll soon know

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Mal

Well I am going to wait and see and enjoy the race - it would not be the first time all the predictions were wrong

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Exactly so. If we all knew exactly what was going to happen we'd all win the lottery every week.....

Exactly!
Let's not forget how many called for total Audi failures when Peugeot whipped them in speed, with somewhat reliable machines.

But Audi still came out on top.

Predicting the result is almost impossible before the sun goes up Sunday morning at Le Mans.

[GT6]

And even then it is not set in stone after all the race will only be just over half way at that stage

[Mal]

Originally Posted by GT6

well that is only 4 weeks so we wll soon know

We wont fully know until 3pm in 6.5 weeks time

[TF110]

How many stints will the tires last for this year? I wonder if they will be able to quadruple stint the tires? My guess is Toyota can achieve 12 laps per stint. Keeping it safe on a triple stint 36 laps total for tires. We still don't know if there will be any further tinkering with the BOP either. Lots to look forward to.

[deggis]

Want some BoP politicking? Here is from both sides:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107259

Only quick summary:

Vasselon estimated that the latest Audi R18 e-tron quattro now has a power advantage over the Toyota TS030 HYBRID in the region of 70-80bhp. [...] Vasselon argued that Audi had turned a significant fuel economy advantage in 2012 into power for this season.

Audi Sport boss Wolfgang Ullrich argued that the results of Spa cannot provide sufficient evidence that a change is necessary. [...]

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by deggis

Want some BoP politicking? Here is from both sides:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107259

Hiss! Meow!! At least Toyota and Audi are competing very closely in the war of words, if not on track.

In my opinion, Vasselon's probably correct. Audi has more power. Does that mean they should be pegged back though, or have Audi just built a better engine?

For me, it was pretty blatant sandbagging from Audi at Spa.

[Mal]

... and so the bickering begins. FWIW - I think Ullrich is right Toyota have not done enough miles in its new car to demonstrate this enough to let the ACO properly judge, therefore they should leave things as they are.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

For me, it was pretty blatant sandbagging from Audi at Spa.

Audi did enough to win the race 1-2-3 is that sandbagging or just good race management?

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Mal

Audi did enough to win the race 1-2-3 is that sandbagging or just good race management?

Would it have been 1-2-3 if the 7 hadn't retired? The number 8 was much, much closer to the other Audis and the Audi's qualifying pace - especially that of the 3 car - vanished in the race. I thought that very odd and little too coincidental.

But I can't prove it

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Would it have been 1-2-3 if the 7 hadn't retired? The number 8 was much, much closer to the other Audis and the Audi's qualifying pace - especially that of the 3 car - vanished in the race. I thought that very odd and little too coincidental.

But I can't prove it

I cant answer that, no one can - but the end result was clear and the #7 went out with 3 hours to go so there was plenty of strategy to play out.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Mal

I cant answer that, no one can - but the end result was clear and the #7 went out with 3 hours to go so there was plenty of strategy to play out.

On reflection, I'm not sure why I said it was "blatant" sandbagging - it wasn't. Maybe it was my disappointing breakfast.

I do suspect Audi weren't going hell-for-leather, however.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

On reflection, I'm not sure why I said it was "blatant" sandbagging - it wasn't. Maybe it was my disappointing breakfast.

I do suspect Audi weren't going hell-for-leather, however.

I agree - why would you if you can win the race without. I tend to disagree as why did they show the pace in qualifying if their intention was to sand bag. If they were sandbagging at any time it was late last year when the Toyota was much quicker - the gain in pace the car has made since then is amazing.

[Fogelhund]

Does Toyota seriously expect different results from a half effort/half budget effort?

[wewantourdarbyback]

Was there any suggestion the BoP favoured Audi at the back end of last season when Toyota were at the head of the field?

[MitchZ06]

That was my first thought when I read that article, what of Toyota being faster than Audi last year? Toyota favoured BoP?

[Pandamasque]

You people seem to be in a hurry to make a judgement.

Let's look at the facts.

We've seen 1 car do 1 race. #7 stayed in contention for the win in its debut race against the two R18s that were a more suitable package for the track (although it did look like Toyota drivers had to push a lot more to match Audi's times). Then something went horribly wrong with the rear brakes.

That's all we know.
Now reading all this speculation it seems like the 2013 TS030 is completely unreliable and off the pace.

I personally think that Toyota are in far better shape for Le Mans than last year. The car looks promising pace-wise, and is likely to be far more reliable than last year, at least it has 1 race under its belt, much testing and Le Mans test is still ahead.

Yes, Audi is likely to have the advantage in reliability (would you seriously expect anything else?), and the numbers. No news here either.
The only hope for Toyota is to push them into errors just like Peugeot did. And it was always going to be the case.

[gregtummer]

I think Toyota can hang with the #2 and #3 Audis.

But, Andre and Ben look so much faster than everyone else in the #1 Audi.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

I think Toyota can hang with the #2 and #3 Audis.

But, Andre and Ben look so much faster than everyone else in the #1 Audi.

I'd agree with that. Toyota may have the drivers capable of being mentioned in Lotterer and Treluyer's class of driver, but those two in an Audi are just absolutely stunning. The extra pace they bring is equal to an awful lot of wind tunnel hours!

The Toyotas last year really started to go for it after the first hour or two, and then caught up - you suspect that Audi had more to give. They knew that neither would last the 24 hours. That could happen again this year.

[Dario911]

I hope Toyota may win in Le Mans, to avoid it may choose to leave P1 class, as it happened to Peugeot. But they must win this year, because from next season... there will be Porsche!

[gustavobamba]

Reading all the interview´s from Audi and Toyota i think that both are hidding the game for Le Mans.

Toyota will try to win Le mans making fewer stops and saving tires. Audi will race full power and try to compensate the stops with a faster race pace.

At this stage Toyota is asking for intervention in BOP because he thinks (and in my opinion rightly) that Audi have power advantage.

Moreover Audi Think Toyota is racing purposefully slower to gain advantage in the BOP for Le Mans.

Now with two brands is difficult to hit the BOP imagine 3 or 4 brands (Porsche and Nissan)!!!!!!


Oh!!! yes, Porsche will rock next year :-)

[Mal]

BOP will always be a problem when you have different fuel / drive systems. Therefore the more unrestricted the rules, the better.

[sssssssss]

toyota are really lame with this stuff. can audi only be beaten by changing the regulations shortly before le mans, like peugeot managed to do in 2009? i really expected more from toyota.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Toyota wants LeMans rule remedy, in light of Audi performance.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107259