The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Again, it's all about being reasonable. Running four cars at Le Mans isn't reasonable, outspending Toyota who are known to be on a tight budget isn't reasonable or smart for that matter, Audi's fear of losing is going to kill the WEC if they can't accept the idea of having real competition.

No one wants to see another Audi runaway at Le Mans this year, probably not even their hard core fans. Having a close race is in everybody's best interest, including Audi's.

None of this makes sense. Audi could be happy about having to spend less and get an even better ROI since they`re fighting an opponent with limited means.

BOOM! took the words outta my mouth. im all up for Audi and Toyota figting till the last lap. that way when Audi wins, they can actually Claim that they've done it fair and square

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

BOOM! took the words outta my mouth. im all up for Audi and Toyota figting till the last lap. that way when Audi wins, they can actually Claim that they've done it fair and square

I don't see how they can't understand this. The value of a victory is determined by how you got there.

Why was their 2011 win so sweet? Because it was an epic race. 20 years down the line nobody will remember 2012 even though the first hybrid win technically was a big milestone.. but the race that got them there was largely boring.

That Toyota has a limited budget is actually a blessing in disguise because it would allow Audi to spend less as well and nobody would suffer.

But instead of using that advantage they`re scared and do what they do best - Throw money at the problem.

[gregtummer]

Why doesn't the ACO just cost cap the class then?

They claim they can do it for F1.

[Acid09]

I think some sort of cost cutting measures would make sense indeed.

Just look at how hard it is to get new manufacturers to join LMP1. Part of that is due to the fact how expensive it is which, in large part, is being driven by one manufacturer operating on a very large budget.

Not all manufacturers have the courage of Toyota who go in there despite knowing that they have to make do with less.

[gregtummer]

I'd be okay with a cost cap.

BUT none of this engine development restriction crap that we see in F1.

$50 million budget. Do whatever you want and can with it. Something like that.

[jsTrecu]

You never know how good your rivals are going to be. Trying deliberatly not to build the best machine you can in order to prevent being far superior and overspending other competitors is ridiculous. If you do that you can end up having the slower car, and then, what ?
Yeah, and then, you go to the ACO office crying and asking for BoP changes

But I agree, some sort of budget cap would help to keep the WEC healthy, maybe.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Why doesn't the ACO just cost cap the class then?

They claim they can do it for F1.

then Audi will be the first to leave

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

then Audi will be the first to leave

Maybe. But how many will join?

[aneesh99]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Maybe. But how many will join?

If cost capped, I could see a lot of manufacturer interest...

[Salamus]

If you want to be in P1, you have to play with the big boys. Audi have proven for over a decade that Le Mans is their playground and you aren't going to beat them with a half-effort. It is amazing what Toyota have done in a year but they have woken up the giant.

Toyota may have an interesting case about Audi's engine; however, they have no proof that it is a huge advantage compared to their 2013 car. Maybe if their 2013 car was prepared earlier, the ruling may be in their favour but that is not the case.

[Salamus]

I guarantee you that a cost-capped P1 class will die faster than an Audi-dominated P1 class.

[chernaudi]

All I've seen in this thread is budget, budget, budget...

It goes back to what a lot of comments on the TMG program have been saying, that Toyota Motor Corporation was willing to dump unconscionable amounts of money in their F1 program and tons more into their NASCAR program. However, they nickel and dime Toyota Motorsport GmbH and their sportscar program. Fact is that in the WEC, Toyota's sportscar program has in theory a better chance of winning a race or at least getting positive press out of any success than they ever got out of their mediocre F1 program, and unless one's a NASCAR fan, the WEC series also is more relevant to road cars and more relevant to fans of racing as opposed to NASCAR of F1.

I personally don't blame Audi for upping their game and spending what they do to race. The LMP1 class is supposed to be about the fastest sportscars in the world, with technology and performance to rival anything out there as far as interest and the event of it all. And just like F1 and NASCAR, if you want to play, you have to pay. When the rules favor the factory teams and those who put forth the effort exploit the rules as put in front of them and their resources, that's what you get.

But, IMO, you can't blame TMG for this. You can't blame Audi, either, because they're doing what we'd rightfully expect them to do, and it's what we'd expect of anyone else--to try and win. If anyone wants to blame anyone, you have to blame Toyota Motor Corporation.

TMC have always seemed to be a bit gun shy about this whole project. From Toyota never racing or testing at Sebring, to DNS'ing at Spa last year after destroying their only usable car that they had at the time, to, only just now asking for help from the ACO.

It also hasn't helped that Rebellion, who Toyota sell engines to, have been close to them at Silverstone and especially Spa. Rebellion are rumored to be running some "trick" dampers/shocks on their cars, possibly something along the lines of the inerter damper/J-damper. One of the Rebellion Lola's, from what I've read and heard, could've finished on the same lap as the #8 Toyota if not for late race engine problems. That can't be helping Toyota's mindset, either.

IMO, you can't blame Audi for doing what they feel needs to be done to win, and you can't blame TMG either in my opinion, because they're trying to do the best with what they've been given. It's who has given them what they have that I'm worried about. I know that Japanese car makers with international racing programs do have an image issue with fans and commentators, and it's known now that TMC has been blamed for meddling with TMG's F1 program. I fear that's what has happened here.

I do fear that some of our worst fears about Toyota and their involvement in racing may be coming true. I hope that's not the case, but the signs aren't encouraging IMO.

[MihokS5]

Acid09 is obviously anti-Audi and is using the "budget" as an excuse for Toyota not being fastest, and Audi once again showing superiority.

Like others have said- Toyota caught Audi's attention last year, and Audi said they would come back even stronger, like they did.

The budget allows for extra cars, testing, and a lot of other factors, but the engineering and execution are what define a car concept. Toyota boasts about having F1 facilities at their disposal (and we all know they have great tools available to them), but their car isn't competitive after 4 hours of racing and they are crying?

The bottom line is that Audi built a better car this year and Toyota is now afraid of being embarrassed at Le Mans

We've seen F1 teams with small budgets compete with powerhouses like Ferrari, etc so it's not always about how much $$ you have.

[chernaudi]

If one's Toyota, would you rather go fast and fall out early, or not have a car that's as fast, but might stand a better chance of finishing? My only worry with the latter is the TS030's reliability, which is still a question mark. I guess if you don't know if you're going to finish or you know that you're going to have issues, may as well go out with a bang. Problem is that we don't know what Toyota may have yet for LM. Audi being faster does seem to be a given, but how much, and how much can Toyota improve on a car that's only been raced once in race conditions?

We have to hope that the LM test day answers some questions, but if Audi is more than 2-3 seconds faster a lap, then Toyota's chances recede dramatically, and each half a second or second that Audi is faster, it'll be that much harder for them to fight back.

[TF110]

They just ran their cars as they could have done if saving fuel wasn't an issue. All this stuff about their car being superior is really down to the regulations from what you see in the interview this is what Vasselon is saying. Audi's claims of "490 hp" are a lie. Toyota saying 530hp is a lie, but I imagine closer to the truth than the diesel engine power claim. What did Audi change drastically on their car to gain 2-3 seconds? The rear of the car has double endplates while the front is a solution from 2011. The ebd may gain them some time too, but look at the real story. Audi are going 20% less distance a stint than last year. It looks clear to me they said "screw efficiency" and are now running the real power their engine can make. What Toyota is saying is if they did the same thing the equality would be off. It is off. They could do the faster laps/shorter stint but would that be even with Audi? I suspect not.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by MihokS5

Acid09 is obviously anti-Audi and is using the "budget" as an excuse for Toyota not being fastest, and Audi once again showing superiority.

Like others have said- Toyota caught Audi's attention last year, and Audi said they would come back even stronger, like they did.

The budget allows for extra cars, testing, and a lot of other factors, but the engineering and execution are what define a car concept. Toyota boasts about having F1 facilities at their disposal (and we all know they have great tools available to them), but their car isn't competitive after 4 hours of racing and they are crying?

The bottom line is that Audi built a better car this year and Toyota is now afraid of being embarrassed at Le Mans

We've seen F1 teams with small budgets compete with powerhouses like Ferrari, etc so it's not always about how much $$ you have.

yeah yeah, Audi's this, Audi that, there are as much ant-Toyota posters here as much as ANTI Audi posters. everyones got their opinions so whats your point? i could could say im a Toyota and a WEC fanboy so id like to see a close fight to the end as previously said. no one likes someone blowing their own trumpet like Audi's been doing for a while.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

They just ran their cars as they could have done if saving fuel wasn't an issue. All this stuff about their car being superior is really down to the regulations from what you see in the interview this is what Vasselon is saying. Audi's claims of "490 hp" are a lie. Toyota saying 530hp is a lie, but I imagine closer to the truth than the diesel engine power claim. What did Audi change drastically on their car to gain 2-3 seconds? The rear of the car has double endplates while the front is a solution from 2011. The ebd may gain them some time too, but look at the real story. Audi are going 20% less distance a stint than last year. It looks clear to me they said "screw efficiency" and are now running the real power their engine can make. What Toyota is saying is if they did the same thing the equality would be off. It is off. They could do the faster laps/shorter stint but would that be even with Audi? I suspect not.

Within just a couple of days Toyota's speech turned from "we are confident for LM" and "we are back in the game" to "we are disadvantaged and need performance adjustments" and you want me to trust every statement that Vasselon has last been reported to make ?

Come on, this is just politics. Lies, lies, lies...

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Within just a couple of days Toyota's speech turned from "we are confident for LM" and "we are back in the game" to "we are disadvantaged and need performance adjustments" and you want me to trust every statement that Vasselon has last been reported to make ?

Come on, this is just politics. Lies, lies, lies...

You must have been reading something other than the Autosport article. Lapierre said "we are back in the game" but also confessed "they were faster". Vasselon didn't say that.

[Velociraptor]

What Toyota is trying to do here is akin to Caterham or Marussia going to Bernie/FIA asking them to slow down Ferrari, Mclaren, Red Bull...

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

You must have been reading something other than the Autosport article. Lapierre said "we are back in the game" but also confessed "they were faster". Vasselon didn't say that.

Please, don't tell me there is any coherence or consistence between statements made by Toyota both before and after the Spa race, and Vasselon's recent "political moaning". Vasselon is also a Toyota spokesman, isn't he ? This is just a joke

[rayburn]

If Toyota really wanted to win Le Mans this year, surely the better way of doing it would be to turn up at Silverstone with TWO 2013 cars, complete and ready to develop reliability and performance for the year ahead, To end up with ONE car ready at the second race immediately prior to LM suggests that they are not really serious about winning. Therefore, it begs the question, why are they involved at all?

Personally , I am glad to see them on the grid, but some strange decisions have been made.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Please, don't tell me there is any coherence or consistence between statements made by Toyota both before and after the Spa race, and Vasselon's recent "political moaning". Vasselon is also a Toyota spokesman, isn't he ? This is just a joke

You must be confused. Theres Pascal Vasselon, technical director. Not Toyota spokesman. Lapierre is a driver. Not a spokesman. So what are you saying? Their comments have to align because they are both employed by Toyota? I haven't seen Vasselon say "were back in the game". Your posts allude to that. Lapierre conceded Audi were faster even though he said theyre back.

Vasselon's comments are in an interview on motorsport-total.com that autosport twisted the title of with their usual spin. The comments from Vasselon are answers to questions. Its not neccessarily a cry for help, hes being realistic by saying they would need the regs to be looked at to be equal. What other petrol teams have been saying for years! This is a dumb argument thats been gone over for as long as diesel cars have been in LeMans. Don't pretend Toyota are the first to say the equality is off.

[CTD]

Could Toyota be in a spot where they see the R18 too developed for them to catch up?
Therefor focusing on their 2014 car in the lab, and running the 2013 as a "test" program, with no intention to win other than an Audi Screw-up/crash?
We know Audi CAN be pushed to mistakes. (however not with the pace that Toyota has shown yet).

Again, I would like to point out that the real pace between Audi and Toyota isn't shown before they race at La Sarthe itself. And determining which is better overall, is impossible before we have passed the 12 hour mark of the race.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

You must be confused.

Yeah, right, "I must be confused". That's the explanation. How dumb I am

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Velociraptor

What Toyota is trying to do here is akin to Caterham or Marussia going to Bernie/FIA asking them to slow down Ferrari, Mclaren, Red Bull...

No. In F1 all cars are built to the same formula - including the same type and size of engine. And therefore it all really comes down to the teams' engineering qualities.

Once you introduce different engine types and sizes with inherently difference performance characteristics, you have to find a balance between these different concepts. If the organizers get that wrong, somebody might do a much better job on the engineering side of things and still be caught out by the organizers incompetence or malevolence.