[WEC] BoP. Brilliant or Pants.

[hondafan37]

Hopefully next year they will be closer with the BOP, the Toyotas look like Verstapen's Red Bull, 505 kw like the Ferraris would have been good

[Akrapovic]

The number 7 has come back from the T1 accident with ease like it wasn't an issue. The BoP is still a bit out indeed.

Not Toyotas fault, obviously. They're just playing the game.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The number 7 has come back from the T1 accident with ease like it wasn't an issue. The BoP is still a bit out indeed.

Not Toyotas fault, obviously. They're just playing the game.

Yes, but we already saw this difference in favor of the Toyotas in Monza and Fuji, then:
Why the Toyotas with 514 kw and not with 505 like the Ferrari or the Cadillac?
Why so little power for the Cadillac?
Why not 1030 Kg for the Peugeot instead of 1041 Kg?
Why not a few kilos less for Porsches?

The championship is already practically won for Toyota, which I am almost sure was the agreement for Ferrari to win LeMans, so why not make a good BOP for the last race and have the great race?

[tomcug]

Peugeot is a weird one. Last year Q lap at Bahrain 1:47.610, this year 1:48.987... with better BOP. I expected them to be strong based on last year's performance while in reality they're just going backwards. I totally don't get it.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Yes, but we already saw this difference in favor of the Toyotas in Monza and Fuji, then:
Why the Toyotas with 514 kw and not with 505 like the Ferrari or the Cadillac?
Why so little power for the Cadillac?
Why not 1030 Kg for the Peugeot instead of 1041 Kg?
Why not a few kilos less for Porsches?

The championship is already practically won for Toyota, which I am almost sure was the agreement for Ferrari to win LeMans, so why not make a good BOP for the last race and have the great race?

They actually purposely fixed Le Mans and the championship!

This is outrageous that such corruption is in the sport.

This needs to go to court and people should be in prison based on what you say. At the very least ACO and FIA should not be allowed to run any Motorsport.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Adam43

They actually purposely fixed Le Mans and the championship!

This is outrageous that such corruption is in the sport.

This needs to go to court and people should be in prison based on what you say.

Actual winner was Filepe Massa.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Actual winner was Filepe Massa.

[Adam43]

Overall I think there remains a misconception that BoP is a bit like success ballast.

Toyota are clearly ahead at the moment. Is this all because BoP I’m not clear on.

The advantage of BoP v. others is that it doesn’t correct for experience (of the car, series, tracks), car usability, drivers, strategy, and other things we hold so dear in endurance racing.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Adam43

They are kind of coincidentally together. Different pace, better or worse on tyres, penalties and they are all together.

Whereas the lead Toyota has pulled out 17s an hour on them.

Those extra 9kw compared to the Ferrari (514 vs 505), What do they represent, 3 or 4 tenths per lap? If I saw correctly they give 30 or 31 laps per hour.
Toyota have 9 or 12 seconds of BOP in favor... How close everything would be if they had done the BOP right.

[Adam43]

3 to 4 10ths. Is it? That sounds a lot.

We had the 36kg is 1.2 seconds lap time impact at Le Mans fromKobi. Don’t know about power.

And anyway if they had made it so it was close, would that have been BoP? Or just making it close. That might not have been fair if Toyota are better at sorting their car so it is easy to drive and is good on tyres, etc…

[tomcug]

Whatever that reason is, the ACO must have some explanation why Caddy and Ferrari are in the lower power category while Toyota and Porsche are in the higher one. They have tons of data on these cars that we'll never see.

[Simmi]

Definitely needs looking at next year.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by tomcug

Whatever that reason is, the ACO must have some explanation why Caddy and Ferrari are in the lower power category while Toyota and Porsche are in the higher one. They have tons of data on these cars that we'll never see.

This is a BOP category then if a car wins all the races and the last 3 by a lot of difference that car has to be the heaviest and the least powerful, if that doesn't happen then the BOP is fictitious and not credible.

[Adam43]

This is a BoP Category so it is possible that a team that has more experience in the category and knows the nuance of endurance racing could win most races.

The point is to balance the (potential) performance of the cars not the actual race results or how well the teams extract the performance.

I bolded it just in case the reader didn’t understand

Not saying it’s perfect. It isn’t, but that rationale is not the reason.

Hopefully next year is closer. Some small tweaks in BoP as there will always be, but I hope it is because these teams learn these tracks and these cars more and work out how to manage these tyres more and instill great team attitude and race strategy. Because that’s the racing I want, not handicap racing. And that is where the nuance and interest in endurance racing has been down the years.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Adam43

This is a BoP Category so it is possible that a team that has more experience in the category and knows the nuance of endurance racing could win most races.

The point is to balance the (potential) performance of the cars not the actual race results or how well the teams extract the performance.

I bolded it just in case the reader didn’t understand

Not saying it’s perfect. It isn’t, but that rationale is not the reason.

Hopefully next year is closer. Some small tweaks in BoP as there will always be, but I hope it is because these teams learn these tracks and these cars more and work out how to manage these tyres more and instill great team attitude and race strategy. Because that’s the racing I want, not handicap racing. And that is where the nuance and interest in endurance racing has been down the years.

More than ever you justify what I say. The TOYOTA had to be the heaviest and least powerful car all year round. Sorry if I make English grammatical mistakes, Google Translate is my friend.

[Adam43]

Thanks for the bold. I understand what you meant immediately.

For me, and I think the race organizers, BoP doesn’t correct for inexperience, bad tyre management, etc. This is a good thing.

You seem to want everyone to have the same chance of winning each race, no matter how good they are at endurance racing.

I admit I cannot tell if the BoP is good or bad, because I cannot perfectly assess it perfectly. However I do know that the field is, relative to most eras of sportscar racing, ridiculously close. Even compared to the effective one make series of LMP2 it is comparable in terms of lap time spread. I look at the numbers (not done Bahrain yet and I expect to see more spread there). However, I reckon I do alright at that, especially calling that Ferrari had the ultimately faster car even before Le Mans. It was the consistency and race craft that kept them back. And tyre warmers!

Where you’ve gone though is to suggest it is fixed! I’m very much not there, no matter how much you hold it.

I apologize I reacted badly and thought you were patronizing people who had a different opinion to you. I tried to make a joke of it - didn’t work.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Thanks for the bold. I understand what you meant immediately.

For me, and I think the race organizers, BoP doesn’t correct for inexperience, bad tyre management, etc. This is a good thing.

You seem to want everyone to have the same chance of winning each race, no matter how good they are at endurance racing.

I admit I cannot tell if the BoP is good or bad, because I cannot perfectly assess it perfectly. However I do know that the field is, relative to most eras of sportscar racing, ridiculously close. Even compared to the effective one make series of LMP2 it is comparable in terms of lap time spread. I look at the numbers (not done Bahrain yet and I expect to see more spread there). However, I reckon I do alright at that, especially calling that Ferrari had the ultimately faster car even before Le Mans. It was the consistency and race craft that kept them back. And tyre warmers!

Where you’ve gone though is to suggest it is fixed! I’m very much not there, no matter how much you hold it.

I apologize I reacted badly and thought you were patronizing people who had a different opinion to you. I tried to make a joke of it - didn’t work.

Thanks for your understanding, I live in Argentina, a country that is on its way to 250% annual inflation, our currency is devalued day by day, on November 19 in the presidential election we are choosing between continuing with the same thieves as always or supporting Javier Milei and going towards freedom and being like you in a few decades, obviously I'm going for Milei!!!
That's why I distrust everything and I can't understand this BOP. The Toyota must be the heaviest and the least powerful.

[Adam43]

[tomcug]

We understand your concerns but there's really no need to shout (aka write in bold). This is just a small community of motorsport enthusiasts. We don't establish BOP, we can only comment ACO's recipe for that

[Sodemo]

I thought the BOP for WEC was about setting all the cars on an equal footing in terms of overall performance, so if you have a weaker engine you can be a bit lighter or if you have more aero you have a higher base weight etc. you build your car then it gets evaluated then that’s the performance window you operate in. I don’t see why this constantly needs to shift around and be changed. Surely you should be given your BOP at the start of the year then it doesn’t change?

[J Jay]

It's been said earlier, but there is this common misconception regarding BoP: it is meant to equalise potential, not actual, performance and results. This is not helped by lots of series deliberately blurring the lines in order to make adjustments outside of their stated schedules.

There's also a separate but related issue with how BoP adjustments are perceived. With some notable exceptions (Super GT for instance), the phrase "success ballast" is the elephant in the room, on everyone's minds but never to be mentioned. Combined with the above and it's not hard to see how viewers may come to think that BoP penalises success.

[Simmi]

I agree in general with the approach to not wade in there and drop an anchor around the Toyota this year. Albeit Le Mans does feel a bit more stage-managed now, with a full season of hindsight.

What I will say is that another full season like we've had becomes potentially damaging at a point where you have new eyeballs on the sport and the series is in a real position to elevate itself. The ACO will also know that, so how they navigate that will be fascinating.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Simmi

I agree in general with the approach to not wade in there and drop an anchor around the Toyota this year. Albeit Le Mans does feel a bit more stage-managed now, with a full season of hindsight.

What I will say is that another full season like we've had becomes potentially damaging at a point where you have new eyeballs on the sport and the series is in a real position to elevate itself. The ACO will also know that, so how they navigate that will be fascinating.

It becomes damaging for manufacturers as well. These are factory run cars. They aren't going to spend millions on them only to have weight added and not win.

GT3 works as a BoP class because its customer cars and the cars are profit centres for the manufacturers, and if WRT don't win in a BMW it's fine because it's not a BMW factory effort.

[JoeW04]

I thought at Le Mans the BOP was about right, everyone seemed to have a chance. At the other rounds not so good.

[seanyb505]

I like trying to remind myself it's balance of potential. Although I think for the sake of the entertainment factor and wanting a memorable 100 anniversary Le mans the organizers dipped their toes in the waters of balance of performance.

We got that, and then returned to our regularly scheduled programming of one team having built a much better mouse trap with much more potential as a machine.