[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[kvenom]

Originally Posted by TF110

He's the guy that lead the Tokachi 24hr hybrid race cars back in 2006 and won with the Supra in 2007. Now that he's in this position, I hope that the lmp1 program sees new life since that's basically his 'pet project'. Being head of all TMG, TRG that's quite a big role. A good guy for the position imo since he's the hybrid leader.

Just to clarify Murata is head of TGR WEC only, not the whole department.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by kvenom

Just to clarify Murata is head of TGR WEC only, not the whole department.

Right, that's why I put the comma (,) He's in charge of TMG's Gazoo Racing projects.

[Adam43]

Eats, shoots and leaves.

I do hope we can have more punctuation justifications, it's what sportscar racing is all about.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Eats, shoots and leaves.

I do hope we can have more punctuation justifications, it's what sportscar racing is all about.

I was only clarifying what I meant. Not trying to prove anything. I didn't want anyone thinking I meant he was in charge of all Toyota's racing.

[Adam43]

I was only pleased I could reference a book about punctuation.

[deggis]

Maybe something that was planned a good time ago so just a coincidental timing.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I was only pleased I could reference a book about punctuation.

I don't read very often. So I was lost on that one

[deggis]

https://www.motorsport.com/formula-e...mula-e-937622/

Toyota unlikely to follow Porsche to FE

The latest manufacturer to sign up to join the series is Porsche, which will wrap up its LMP1 effort in the FIA World Endurance Championship to prepare for a season six Formula E entry.

It's a move that leaves Toyota as the sole manufacturer entry in LMP1 from 2018 onwards, but Motorsport.com understands it is unlikely to follow its WEC rival into FE, at least in the short-term, and that its priority will be to secure its first Le Mans 24 Hours win in 2018.

Agag had held discussions with Toyota about it joining Formula E for the series' inaugural season in 2014/15, but said he was reluctant to try and lure away another manufacturer from WEC.

“We haven’t had too many conversations with Toyota,” he added. “We know them and I visited a couple of years ago when I was in Japan, but we haven’t had anything more than that.

"I think that right now they are probably having a look at their future steps and strategy and then we will see.

[GasperG]

With spec battery in Formula E, IMO Toyota is not interested.

Spec battery is just like spec IC motor, battery is not just a fuel tank it's the most important part of the propulsion system and I don't understand why would a manufacturer enter in Formula E with spec battery.

Actually I know, because some (like almost all) manufacturers don't have their own battery development.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by GasperG

With spec battery in Formula E, IMO Toyota is not interested.

Spec battery is just like spec IC motor, battery is not just a fuel tank it's the most important part of the propulsion system and I don't understand why would a manufacturer enter in Formula E with spec battery.

Actually I know, because some (like almost all) manufacturers don't have their own battery development.

It's cheap PR. That's basically it. Toyota gains little from F-E imo, especially since they're the #1 in hybrid and that's probably 'good enough' for the time being. Most of the guys in the series gain little, but I guess they think the series itself will gain a lot in popularity or something? Where's Tesla's F-E interest? I think when you take a look at it like what you said about the spec battery, the series just looks like an inexpensive advertisement for electric tech that has yet to exist.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

It's cheap PR. That's basically it. Toyota gains little from F-E imo, especially since they're the #1 in hybrid and that's probably 'good enough' for the time being. Most of the guys in the series gain little, but I guess they think the series itself will gain a lot in popularity or something? Where's Tesla's F-E interest? I think when you take a look at it like what you said about the spec battery, the series just looks like an inexpensive advertisement for electric tech that has yet to exist.

Tesla aren't interested in motorsport at all. Musk tweets support for Electric GT every so often, but he isn't involved with it. They're marketing themselves as a technology and energy company more than car manufacturer now, so I guess it isn't really their market.

The current Formula E battery is only 28 kWh (according to Williams, but I have seen other numbers posted which is a bit odd), whilst Tesla are putting 100 kWh in the road cars. Even the 'cheap' Model 3 is using 60 and 80 kWh batteries. And despite weighing a LOT more, the Model S does 0-60 faster than the Formula E car. So right now, Formula E isn't a technology showcase for Tesla.

[canaglia]

From decades toyota is pushing on hybrid vehicles and technologies. Join FE would be a huge paradox for them.
Very likely, third manufacturer to take its place will be a fiat brand. Maserati likely.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by canaglia

From decades toyota is pushing on hybrid vehicles and technologies. Join FE would be a huge paradox for them.
Very likely, third manufacturer to take its place will be a fiat brand. Maserati likely.

To be fair, Toyota is moving from hybrids, to plugin hybrids and then to fuel cell and EVs. They made the RAV4 EV and I think do the wee iQ EV as well. It's on the Toyota road map, just a longer way away than most car manufacturers are doing it.

http://www.toyota-global.com/innovat...plugin_hybrid/

[deggis]

Lots of hype for hydrogen fuel cell but little to show for. The big issue is the infrastructure compared to electric vehicles which can use the existing power grid. Also extracting hydrogen isn't apparently that cheap.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by deggis

Lots of hype for hydrogen fuel cell but little to show for. The big issue is the infrastructure compared to electric vehicles which can use the existing power grid. Also extracting hydrogen isn't apparently that cheap.

Extracting hydrogen takes a lot of electricity. So much that generally it's cheaper and more efficient to just use that electricity to power the car. So if you're wasting energy (and money) producing the hydrogen, you're just wasting time.

But there was an (accidental) breakthrough earlier this year that made it a lot easier to extra hydrogen from water, using room temperature aluminium alloy, rather than having to superheat the aluminium. But that all depends on how easy it is to produce this alloy and if it works outside of the lab. And even if it does work, if it takes too long to become viable, then we could have electric cars that do a full charge in 5-15 minutes, at which point hydrogens advantages disappear.

But maybe we could use hydrogen combustion engines for motorsport so we can retain the noise. That'd be nice.

[blankfile]

Actually a lot of hydrogen is extracted as a side product to "cleaning" copper for electrical wiring.

But yes extracting hydrogen is a verry expensive process otherwise

[JHamilton]

The biggest problem with synthesizing hydrogen is that it takes high heat, mostly provided by fossil fuels. Just like with the electrification of the automobile, we're mostly kicking the can down the road. As long as we don't see how the energy is made, it must be more efficient and clean! Right?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

The biggest problem with synthesizing hydrogen is that it takes high heat, mostly provided by fossil fuels. Just like with the electrification of the automobile, we're mostly kicking the can down the road. As long as we don't see how the energy is made, it must be more efficient and clean! Right?

We've went through this a few times though If the grid is powered from 100% natural gas (which it isn't, but it makes it easy for an example), you get an efficiency gain of around 20-40% (Petrol 20%, diesel 40%, has generator up to 60%). So it's still a net gain to do that, even if it isn't a complete solution. In Norway or Iceland, using the grid would give your car zero emissions from use (not saying the production of it isn't emission free of course!).

Baby steps! If this new hydrogen production concept works then it could swing the needle towards hydrogen rather than electric. Really have to wait and see if it works outside the lab. But either way, both hydrogen fuel cell and full electric EVs are on Toyotas road map.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

We've went through this a few times though If the grid is powered from 100% natural gas (which it isn't, but it makes it easy for an example), you get an efficiency gain of around 20-40% (Petrol 20%, diesel 40%, has generator up to 60%). So it's still a net gain to do that, even if it isn't a complete solution. In Norway or Iceland, using the grid would give your car zero emissions from use (not saying the production of it isn't emission free of course!).

Baby steps! If this new hydrogen production concept works then it could swing the needle towards hydrogen rather than electric. Really have to wait and see if it works outside the lab. But either way, both hydrogen fuel cell and full electric EVs are on Toyotas road map.

I'm sorry! This will be controversial, but I have a completely irrational hatred of Toyotas so I haven't spent much time in here.

Most of the articles and studies I have seen do not take into account the production of the fossil fuels though. Meaning, what was the environmental cost of the natural gas production? Add that to the equation and we're inching our way back to zero but at a higher financial cost.

I totally agree that we cannot sit still and have to come up with alternatives. I can't help but feeling like we're attacking the issue from the wrong angle... 60% of the power production in my country comes from burning coal. An answer is out there but I don't think we even know what it is yet. To your point, we won't find it if we don't try.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

I'm sorry! This will be controversial, but I have a completely irrational hatred of Toyotas so I haven't spent much time in here.

Most of the articles and studies I have seen do not take into account the production of the fossil fuels though. Meaning, what was the environmental cost of the natural gas production? Add that to the equation and we're inching our way back to zero but at a higher financial cost.

I totally agree that we cannot sit still and have to come up with alternatives. I can't help but feeling like we're attacking the issue from the wrong angle... 60% of the power production in my country comes from burning coal. An answer is out there but I don't think we even know what it is yet. To your point, we won't find it if we don't try.

New nuclear plants in geologically stable areas creating hydrogen to be distributed, as electricity has a super high loss ratio over long transmission lengths, to local markets where it can be utilized as either hydrogen fuel cell for cars or converted to electricity for the local grid. Storing the spent fuel underground in remote desert areas, to keep it above the water table until a time as we have created a safe rail gun with which to launch the spent fuel into the sun for disposal. Just a thought..

Then either fuel cell or electricity could power the FUTURE of Sports Car Racing.







L.P.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

I'm sorry! This will be controversial, but I have a completely irrational hatred of Toyotas so I haven't spent much time in here.

Most of the articles and studies I have seen do not take into account the production of the fossil fuels though. Meaning, what was the environmental cost of the natural gas production? Add that to the equation and we're inching our way back to zero but at a higher financial cost.

I totally agree that we cannot sit still and have to come up with alternatives. I can't help but feeling like we're attacking the issue from the wrong angle... 60% of the power production in my country comes from burning coal. An answer is out there but I don't think we even know what it is yet. To your point, we won't find it if we don't try.

Tesla (the original Nikola) had a nice idea that I think was feasible but that's way off topic.

I do think if Toyota sticks around long enough, they may want to use hydrogen in the future for an lmp1. That would be pretty cool to see.

[roderick]

I hear Toyota will take part in all the races next year. However, I also hear people saying there is one less race next year??
does anyone know which race has been removed or replaced?

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by roderick

I hear Toyota will take part in all the races next year. However, I also hear people saying there is one less race next year??
does anyone know which race has been removed or replaced?

The 2018 WEC schedule hasn’t been released yet. There’s speculation that COTA might be dropped — the contract is apparently up and the race doesn’t draw well. The only other Grade 1 track in the U.S. is Indianapolis.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Extracting hydrogen takes a lot of electricity. So much that generally it's cheaper and more efficient to just use that electricity to power the car. So if you're wasting energy (and money) producing the hydrogen, you're just wasting time.

Well, if you have a surplus of energy in certain time spands, then this fits perfectly with Hydrogen production.

Denmark has a lot of wind mills and is investing a lot in the technology. One drawback however is that they usually produce the most energy at night, when the wind picks up. Unfortunately that is when the power consumption is at the lowest and therefore supply is bigger than the demand. This results in that the Danish powergrid is overcharged and the overflowing electricity is send to Germany for free or with the danes paying the germans to take the overflow.
This overflow is perfect for Hydrogen production as it is "wasted" energy.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by CTD

Well, if you have a surplus of energy in certain time spands, then this fits perfectly with Hydrogen production.

Denmark has a lot of wind mills and is investing a lot in the technology. One drawback however is that they usually produce the most energy at night, when the wind picks up. Unfortunately that is when the power consumption is at the lowest and therefore supply is bigger than the demand. This results in that the Danish powergrid is overcharged and the overflowing electricity is send to Germany for free or with the danes paying the germans to take the overflow.
This overflow is perfect for Hydrogen production as it is "wasted" energy.

It does work for hydrogen, but it also means production can be erratic. It's difficult to sustain production and a business when you're relying on surplus energy. And even then, if everyone was driving an electric car, presumably most would charge overnight, which works very well for Denmarks overnight surplus wind energy. There are grid storage methods such as pumped storage for storing surplus wind/solar energy, as it means it can utilised when the wind drops or when the sun goes down, rather than being forced to use it or waste it. California uses this - masses of excess solar during the day, they pump water uphill. Let it flow down hill and use it as hydroelectric at night. There's some insane moulton super heated salt stuff too, which is a bit crazy.

Hydrogen plus points
- can be refilled like a petrol car, so very quick and familiar/easy
- can be utilised as a fuel cell or ICE (ICE keeps the sound and gearbox requirement, so a car would feel 'traditional')

Hydrogen down side (currently)
- very expensive to produce
- very inefficient to produce
- no distribution network

I really hope we do get some breakthroughs in hydrogen production, just so we can keep the ICE sound and characteristics of a car. It'll be a sad day when race tracks are silent. One or two quiet cars is fine, but I want a V8.