IMSA DPi Discussion

[chernaudi]

There should be some development, but I think that this will go too far into the NASCAR/Indy Car quasi-spec realm. Even ACO LMP2 will have more development even with a spec engine and cost caps, especially on the aero end.

If you want development, bring LMP1 back in, but I don't think you'll find very many takers in North America.

[YZFrider]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

If you want development, bring LMP1 back in, but I don't think you'll find very many takers in North America.

What about limited development like GTE? Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't they only allowed one evolutionary package during a race season and the other bits they are allowed to modify are more refinements throughout the year? This could allow a chassis manufacturer to correct a serious flaw and keep them competitive.
Another idea: 3 different aero packages to choose from ( sort of like Indy aero kits)

Note: my ideas are for later years of DPi if and when the economy (ergo sponsorship) get better. Or, used as a last ditch effort to draw any interest to the class if it goes south

[Rcz]

Maybe IMSA just make their own cars that are loosely based on ACO ones. Feels like we're going into that direction anyway. This has worked before.

If not, then just go all GT.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Rcz

Maybe IMSA just make their own cars that are loosely based on ACO ones. Feels like we're going into that direction anyway. This has worked before.

DPi is, at it's core, an attempt to do a modern GTP without breaking the bank for privateers. Trouble is, they're trying to force the GTP side of it too much. It'd only take a couple of minor changes to the plan to make it what it really needs to be, but IMSA isn't willing to make those changes - they're dead set on sticking to the plan.

Hopefully the impending HPD withdrawal makes them change their tune.

[Deleted]

Nah, no worries...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKeAAdjZYAs

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

DPi is, at it's core, an attempt to do a modern GTP without breaking the bank for privateers. Trouble is, they're trying to force the GTP side of it too much. It'd only take a couple of minor changes to the plan to make it what it really needs to be, but IMSA isn't willing to make those changes - they're dead set on sticking to the plan.

Hopefully the impending HPD withdrawal makes them change their tune.

One might think that IMSA management would be old enough to remember GTP and realize that their DPi isn't even remotely similar, other than having 4 wheels. They have blindly resurrected DP but with carbon tub and a little bodywork variation, still 2nd or 3rd tier. It does seem that enforcing the bodywork issue is going to cost entries, some manufacturers would be quite happy to provide engines but won't go for the bespoke bodywork. These economic times are so different from the GTP days where a manufacturer would gladly pony up for a ground up top tech car - damn the cost. Now they don't even want to go beyond selling engines and maybe grilles. We loose.

[Deleted]

To no-one's surpise, no Bentley or Nissan
http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/be...rams-for-2017/

Awaiting for the "the start was always going to be difficult, but wait for 2018/19/XX, then it'll be great!" responses

[Coach Ep]

Yep, that will start this weekend at Laguna Seca with Mazda's official announcement.

No surprise though, HPD won't be there either and IMSA doesn't care if they pull their engine supply to Shank as well, it can easily be replaced by a Nissan after all. Might make Shank/Pew to go somewhere else as well (ELMS? WEC?).

So a couple of Cadillacs and a few Mazdas next year. And perhaps 1 or 2 FIA spec P2s + a current P2 coupe (?). Don't be shocked to see only 6-8 protos - again! - next year.

Not the start we were looking for, still think the potential for another Prototype boom in the US is there but IMSA apparently has a different vision on things.

[TF110]

I think most of us saw this coming. They need to forget about aligning themselves with p2 imo. Just do lmp1 minus the hybrids. Nissan, Rebellion and more will join. You can use the spec chassis' or build your own but make it available to customers. Why is this so hard!?

[Deleted]

Even if they run to the privateer P1 rules they'd still performance balance them to death, per Grand-Am prototype philosophy.

[TF110]

Not even on that subject, my line of thinking is LM-eligiblility. Nissan already talking about engine supply in P1, so here's that chance! Nope, more spec on top of already limited spec on top of bop.

[Deleted]

By the way, weren't you one of those people not wishing LMP1 (privateers) back in ELMS? You want them in States but not Europe?

My preference would still be LMP1 (non-hybrid) as head class for ELMS... and in IMSA full LMP1 only for Sebring and PLM. They could keep their spec-and-bop fake sticker DPi-P2-whatevers on top for Daytona and rest of the races

[TF110]

The elms is healthy as is in the prototype class. I think adding lmp1 back to it would hurt lmp2 entries. But imsa isn't healthy in the prototype class. Plus they want to have manufacturer involvement. Nothing the elms has voiced. So if that's the case, they (imsa) should have lmp1 where manufacturers belong. On top of it, there's 24hr of Daytona, 12hr of Sebring, Watkins Glen etc. The elms has standard 4hr races, nothing stand-out about that lmp1 teams would be interested in winning.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

No surprise though, HPD won't be there either and IMSA doesn't care if they pull their engine supply to Shank as well, it can easily be replaced by a Nissan after all.

Only if they want to trundle around even further from the front of the field than they currently are.

Old-spec P2s are going to be bopped out of contention next year. Nobody's going to want ANY current package if they can avoid it.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

The elms is healthy as is in the prototype class. I think adding lmp1 back to it would hurt lmp2 entries. But imsa isn't healthy in the prototype class. Plus they want to have manufacturer involvement. Nothing the elms has voiced. So if that's the case, they (imsa) should have lmp1 where manufacturers belong. On top of it, there's 24hr of Daytona, 12hr of Sebring, Watkins Glen etc. The elms has standard 4hr races, nothing stand-out about that lmp1 teams would be interested in winning.

I'm not really thinking/caring too much what it may do to the ELMS itself, or LMP2, but what effect it may solely have on the non-hybrid LMP1 Surely, there cannot be any negative effect for that classes health and customer market in such trial. It may just be 4 hour races, but still overall race wins, and cheaper series to run (than WEC)... and you are still getting auto LM invite without doubt.

Anyway, in America it obviously comes to money. The remaining OEMs like GM & "Mazda" obviously don't want to spend more than poorest of pennies to get what they want, plus the ex Grand-Am people expect everything cheap and easy and "as it has always been" (Wayne Taylor, Peter Baron, Mike Shank, Jim France Team etc)

[HORNDAWG]

DPi and P2 will be the same class on this side of the Pond, IMSA 'P' class. IMSA has REPEATEDLY stated that the P2 with the Gibson engine will be the benchmark for DPi. That will not change! The ACO needs to pull it's head out of it's arse and get with the program. The cars will be BoPed in IMSA so there is data on which to balance the 1 or 2 DPis that MAY make the trip to Le Mans. Or just be their usual selves, in which a team going to Le Mans can lease a program car from their 'chassis' partner. The loser in all of this is more than likely Speed Source and Mazda, everyone else probably could give a shite.






L.P.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

IMSA has REPEATEDLY stated that the P2 with the Gibson engine will be the benchmark for DPi.

Theoretically... supposedly... allegedly...

They have as good reason to give realistically-race-winnable BoP to some OEM-defying Oreca-Zytek, as they have for Ian Dawson if he wanted to enter Radical for Detroit in couple weeks time...

By the way. I think, what tells you that certain formula X is close to "dumbification", it's when the organizers more often that not start referring it to as "car". Not "class" or "regulations" or even "cars", but "car". The "new car". The "DPi car". It's the same as with IndyCar or NASCAR. It's basically an acknowledgment of the thing just being one piece of kit, perhaps mildly varying in details.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I'm not really thinking/caring too much what it may do to the ELMS itself, or LMP2, but what effect it may solely have on the non-hybrid LMP1 Surely, there cannot be any negative effect for that classes health and customer market in such trial. It may just be 4 hour races, but still overall race wins, and cheaper series to run (than WEC)... and you are still getting auto LM invite without doubt.

Anyway, in America it obviously comes to money. The remaining OEMs like GM & "Mazda" obviously don't want to spend more than poorest of pennies to get what they want, plus the ex Grand-Am people expect everything cheap and easy and "as it has always been" (Wayne Taylor, Peter Baron, Mike Shank, Jim France Team etc)

I believe they have as much money or more than the likes of Kolles or Rebellion. Those guys can afford to do a privateer p1 effort, so I don't believe it's hugely expensive for these guys to do the same. Like you said, bop takes care of everything, so in reality it'd be lmp1 in nothing but name. But with that class title, they can enter LM with their goofy bodykits and non-spec Gibson engine. That makes much more sense than trying to get away with saying were going to equalize the cars with lmp2. I think the separation between the two classes in the new regs will mostly be down to engines (including power), tires, and aero development. Nothing imsa's tinkering doesn't equalize right now!

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I'm not really thinking/caring too much what it may do to the ELMS itself, or LMP2, but what effect it may solely have on the non-hybrid LMP1

Which is why some folks keep disagreeing. Some folks are looking at the series and the health of the series, and not about the health of a single class of cars which isn’t even part of that series. Killing ELMS to try to help P1-privateer seems like a bad idea.

Yes, P1-L teams might like to race for overall wins. So do P2 teams. The thing is, there are actually a bunch of P2 teams who want to race in ELMS. All the P1-L teams who might want to race in a modified ELMS are imaginary. Building a series around imaginary teams seems like a really good idea--for say, on online race-simulator series. Not for a real-world series,. however.

I think we can all agree that ELMS seemed best when it was a mini-WEC/ILMS—a series with P1, P2, and GTE. However, it might nto be possible to get back there in the current financial climate.

P1 has gotten to be exponentially more advanced and expensive. I don’t think any of us want to see the high-tech aspect go away, but the cost comes with that. The same with development—the more development, the more cost. Ultimately only factories can afford to race in the highest class—which is fine until most of the m leave, and things get readjusted (or until the cost of the technology drops and it spreads to other classes.)

P1-L is almost a joke—three cars operated by two teams is a class in a top-tier worldwide championship series? But WEC needs the cash, I guess, and wouldn’t gain by alienating the teams, and it really doesn’t cost the series anything extra.

If P1-L had half-a-dozen entries, then I could see risking alienating all the ELMS p2 teams and bringing back P1-L as the top class there. As it stands ... no.

As for where DPi should fit in ... I am certain that DPis will be so different from P2s, no matter what IMSA says, that a straight crossover into P2 would not work. First off, I don’t trust IMSA to balance DPi and P2 ... they have no reason to, since they A.) want the DPis to be on top for financial reasons and

B.) have seen that even with outrageously unfair DP/P2 BoP, the P2 teams kept racing, simply because IMSA was still their best prospect for racing at all (WEC being too expensive and ELMS being too few races, and both being overseas, where North American sponsors wouldn’t get any exposure.)

However they do it, whatever tweaks IMSA determines are needed to make a good series for North America would be rejected by FIA-ACO at Le Mans. On top of that, IMSA teams would need to use completely new tires, and thus would need to develop new suspension set-ups. Easier to simply rent a P2 chassis, as others have said.

Originally Posted by Chiana

Anyway, in America it obviously comes to money. The remaining OEMs like GM & "Mazda" obviously don't want to spend more than poorest of pennies to get what they want, plus the ex Grand-Am people expect everything cheap and easy and "as it has always been" (Wayne Taylor, Peter Baron, Mike Shank, Jim France Team etc)

In fact, Chevrolet gets all the Le Mans exposure (and ad copy) it needs through its GTLM Vette program—spending a bundle trying to run DPi wouldn’t likely pay off because the cars aren’t Corvettes and everyone will be able to see that .... it would probably only create confusion.

Mazda will need to lobby long and hard to get its 4-cylinder accepted by FIA-ACO and I expect it will ... but I don’t see Mazda spending that money anytime soon. Maybe if the team continues o do well this year and then does even better next year, but right now, it doesn’t make much sense to push hard to add a ton of cost into a program which has struggled for so long and has also never shown any reliability.

If I were John Doonan I would wait until after the first successful season in DPi to start lobbying heavily to be accepted at Le Mans. No sense spending a bundle to get over there and doing poorly and/or breaking early.

The whole P1-L issue would only be a headache for FIA_ACO to mess with at all. Things are fine now, why bother? If DPis insist on racing at Le Mans and refuse to comply with the rules in P2 ... why not shunt them into the P1-L class? Easiest solution fo FIA_ACO, who really has nothing to gain either way. And given the reliability of ByKolles and Rebellion, a slow and steady Riley-Corvette could probably be assured of a podium finish at least.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Which is why some folks keep disagreeing. Some folks are looking at the series and the health of the series, and not about the health of a single class of cars which isn’t even part of that series. Killing ELMS to try to help P1-privateer seems like a bad idea.

This is what I call living in today, and not considering the future. What you see today in ELMS is a false representation of what is to come. I can understand (even though not agree) if people now feel like it's all roses everywhere in the series, but in couple of years time when the last of the grandfathered LMP2s have been phased out and you are left with the new gen full-on spec cars (and probably only clone Oreca and Onroak as the likelihood of the other two supplying outside IMSA is low, at least in meaningful numbers)... what do you say then?

It's like living in 2008 and comparing the ALMS P2 of that day to ALMS P2 of 2011, and arguing how amazing it's still gonna be by then. And in that hypothetical case, they wouldn't even have known how badly it would plunder in philosophy (not to mention the grids itself, and financials), unlike you can predict now.

Yes, P1-L teams might like to race for overall wins. So do P2 teams. The thing is, there are actually a bunch of P2 teams who want to race in ELMS. All the P1-L teams who might want to race in a modified ELMS are imaginary. Building a series around imaginary teams seems like a really good idea--for say, on online race-simulator series. Not for a real-world series,. however.

The P1s wanting to run in ELMS, it's not "imaginary". Even Rebellion stated last year that (besides IMSA) they might just have to go to ELM in 2017 with P2, and why? Because they want those overall wins. Also, they already have satellite linkup going on with TDS. They want to be there.

Many of the others that have stated interest for going privateer LMP1 in the future, partly because of the new dumbified LMP2 rules forcing them there, are already in ELMS. So I guess if they ever switch boats, they automatically wouldn't have any interest for the series anymore, but solely WEC? If Greaves wanted to have LMP1, they'd say "screw ELMS the only place we want to be is WEC, in that glorious 7th position"

I guess (2011-) LMP2s have Godly Given Right to win races overall, in three ACO series, but non-factory LMP1s not "just because".

The argument that the LMP2s would all suddenly disappear once demoted back to secondary division (oh, why should a class called LMP2 be secondary????!!!!) is just as speculative myth as you seem to be making my LMP1 teams wanting to run in ELMS. For example, look how "massively" the P2 interest changed from under-LMP1-reign to LMP2-on-top
http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=1190

I think we can all agree that ELMS seemed best when it was a mini-WEC/ILMS—a series with P1, P2, and GTE. However, it might nto be possible to get back there in the current financial climate.

Yeah, and not even trying to get back there is surely the best way to achieve that

P1 has gotten to be exponentially more advanced and expensive. I don’t think any of us want to see the high-tech aspect go away, but the cost comes with that. The same with development—the more development, the more cost. Ultimately only factories can afford to race in the highest class—which is fine until most of the m leave, and things get readjusted (or until the cost of the technology drops and it spreads to other classes.)

What you are describing here is the Hybrid class, not the Non-Hybrid.

P1-L is almost a joke—three cars operated by two teams is a class in a top-tier worldwide championship series? But WEC needs the cash, I guess, and wouldn’t gain by alienating the teams, and it really doesn’t cost the series anything extra.

If P1-L had half-a-dozen entries, then I could see risking alienating all the ELMS p2 teams and bringing back P1-L as the top class there. As it stands ... no.

A) P1-L is (still) a dead set of words
B) I agree that having officially-branded-and-awarded sub class is a joke
C) But it's not their fault they don't have competition
D) Because no customer market zones = no class

Yeah, I'm sure LMP2 would be in amazing health too if only place in the Earth you could run it would be WEC, and let's say all the regional series were given exclusively to LMP3!

As for where DPi should fit in ... I am certain that DPis will be so different from P2s, no matter what IMSA says, that a straight crossover into P2 would not work. First off, I don’t trust IMSA to balance DPi and P2 ... they have no reason to, since they A.) want the DPis to be on top for financial reasons and

B.) have seen that even with outrageously unfair DP/P2 BoP, the P2 teams kept racing, simply because IMSA was still their best prospect for racing at all (WEC being too expensive and ELMS being too few races, and both being overseas, where North American sponsors wouldn’t get any exposure.)

However they do it, whatever tweaks IMSA determines are needed to make a good series for North America would be rejected by FIA-ACO at Le Mans. On top of that, IMSA teams would need to use completely new tires, and thus would need to develop new suspension set-ups. Easier to simply rent a P2 chassis, as others have said.

I don't disagree with any of this. All I hope that, if there has to be a "DPi" nonsense at Le Mans too, they rather keep it within other LMP2s and forget the LMP1 integration, right now.

In fact, Chevrolet gets all the Le Mans exposure (and ad copy) it needs through its GTLM Vette program—spending a bundle trying to run DPi wouldn’t likely pay off because the cars aren’t Corvettes and everyone will be able to see that .... it would probably only create confusion.

Are we talking about the same Chevrolet who puts "Corvette DP" news headlines on the Corvette Racing webpage, usually ahead of the actual Corvette GTE team news

Anyway, if/when the "prototype" stickers switch focus from Corvette to Cadillac, it's gonna change a little bit. But that still doesn't change the fact that they want to be in the head class of IMSA as cheaply as possible, and winning as easily as possible.

Mazda will need to lobby long and hard to get its 4-cylinder accepted by FIA-ACO and I expect it will ... but I don’t see Mazda spending that money anytime soon. Maybe if the team continues o do well this year and then does even better next year, but right now, it doesn’t make much sense to push hard to add a ton of cost into a program which has struggled for so long and has also never shown any reliability.

If I were John Doonan I would wait until after the first successful season in DPi to start lobbying heavily to be accepted at Le Mans. No sense spending a bundle to get over there and doing poorly and/or breaking early.

Even if they had fully complying car and engine, I don't think they would get in as "Mazda" anyway. It's one thing to have fake-branded minor branding manufacturer like Alpine on the grid, but quite another with major car manufacturer title like "Mazda". Now, ACO obviously knows all too well that the "Mazda" team is just Speedsource in disguise and the Mazda bit in it is very thin and poorly budgeted, but regardless, they don't want to have name Mazda at Le Mans unless it's in factory LMP1. So I suspect, in addition to complying car and engine they'd have to be called Speedsource at LM.

The whole P1-L issue would only be a headache for FIA_ACO to mess with at all. Things are fine now, why bother?

Things are fine? Are they?

Anyway, as I said in response to TF110 already, I don't think the privateer P1s in IMSA would work because of *issues*, but the enduros (Sebring/PLM only) for the factories+privateers are another thing.

If DPis insist on racing at Le Mans and refuse to comply with the rules in P2 ... why not shunt them into the P1-L class? Easiest solution fo FIA_ACO, who really has nothing to gain either way. And given the reliability of ByKolles and Rebellion, a slow and steady Riley-Corvette could probably be assured of a podium finish at least.

IDK, let's see, because it's the most uttermost joke of the generation?

And then on turn of course, even if we discount the joke that it would be to have them there in LMP1, and the whole performance issue... if IMSA cars can contest LMP1s at Le Mans, but LMP1s are not allowed to beat IMSA cars at their own series = Garbage logic

[Deleted]

Mods, if you feel my and other peoples associated ELMS-LMP1-rants are again going all over inappropriate places, on this thread and the others, feel free to relocate them here
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143940

[Makaze]

At the moment it isn't looking to good for IMSA DPi class for the 2017 season.

The only 'almost' confirmed programs are Mazda and Cadillac.

Because of the spec delays from IMSA,HPD program most likely delayed to 2018.Their priority now is the NSX GT3 for 2017.


So it looks like about 5-7 DPi for next year.

[Aces]

Originally Posted by Makaze

At the moment it isn't looking to good for IMSA DPi class for the 2017 season.

The only 'almost' confirmed programs are Mazda and Cadillac.

Because of the spec delays from IMSA,HPD program most likely delayed to 2018.Their priority now is the NSX GT3 for 2017.


So it looks like about 5-7 DPi for next year.

Throw in a couple spec p2s and we have a decent grid.

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by Aces

Throw in a couple spec p2s and we have a decent grid.

Reality:

4 DPi, 1 new P2, 2 (last minute) grandfathered DPs, DWing and Shank's 16/17 P-imsa, it will be an epically record field, both in size and variety!

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Makaze

At the moment it isn't looking to good for IMSA DPi class for the 2017 season.

The only 'almost' confirmed programs are Mazda and Cadillac.

Because of the spec delays from IMSA,HPD program most likely delayed to 2018.Their priority now is the NSX GT3 for 2017.


So it looks like about 5-7 DPi for next year.

It is not the 2017 DPI class! DPi does not/will not make up the entire 2017 IMSA 'P' class, there are still the new 2017 P2 and grandfathered 15/16 P2s that can and will comprise it.







L.P.