[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[skeeskirrt]

A good video about the Dual Boost turbo on that website, too.

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by skeeskirrt

http://turbo.honeywell.com/whats-new...rs-of-le-mans/

Press Release from Honeywell Turbos. 16 consecutive LM24 winners with Honeywell Turbo technology!

"Gasoline DualBoost technology provides 20 to 30 percent better response for improved acceleration out of corners and more steady state engine power from higher turbo efficiency. This is achieved in an overall lighter weight package that is 10 to 20 percent smaller than an equivalent standard gasoline turbo."

Great link. Explains a little how Porsche managed to extract so much horsepower and torque from that little V4. I think they managed at least 700bhp, probably more...

[Deleted]

http://www.racer.com/f1/item/118228-...-after-le-mans

"In the next few weeks when I get home, I will realize more and more [the achievement] and try to enjoy it as much as I can. I don't think we'll have to wait until the end of the season [to celebrate]. I think we'll do something within Porsche, within our team, much earlier than the end of the year."

You know I was thinking, and speaking of "celebration", couldn't Porsche enter the #19 again for one off Nurburgring 6 Hours? And Audi too? For German flagship event.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by GTfour

Great link. Explains a little how Porsche managed to extract so much horsepower and torque from that little V4. I think they managed at least 700bhp, probably more...

I don't think fuel allocation restrictions allows that much right now.

Around 600hp in race conditions is not far from truth i think, and its not needed more for very fast, since most of the hp is only needed for 'launching/acceleration' not after 300kmh, and for that intense torque/hp phase, Porsche and its electric motor(with 8MJ) seems unbeatable for now...

Theoretically(proved in practice in F1) a relative small turbo petrol it can even have more than 1000hp, its only a matter of the wastegates provide more boost pressure and allow the engine to rev much higher, all from the same 'base' re-enforced and better balanced engine... as comparison diesel is much more restricted in the reving so it would have to go for more displacement, but all perfectly equivalent, 6L at 5Krpm diesel (clearly possible >1000 hp perhaps even >1500 hp) is equivalent 2L at 15k rpm petrol(F1 territory)...

^ talking about insane numbers >= 500hp per litter of displacement for petrol, >= 250hp per liter of dispalcement for diesel... ~ 1600hp diesel, ~1100hp petrol in that equivalence of engine breathing -> the same exact amount of air volume displacement per second.. fuel flows be damned of course lol ...

Diesel right now is approaching 200hp/litter in Audi... perhaps ~170hp litter... because due to fuel flows, engine is restricted to around 4500rpm (in 2013 they were approaching 4900rpm seen in telemetry videos, though much less efficient, so less powerful)... if fuel flows were much less restricted they could be on top of the 200hp litter... if free, i think 250hp would be possible, and then Audi engine in the config it is, would be enough for 1000hp...

So the battle will continue for 'efficiency'... and hybrid power will be as determinant as it is showing to be today... and this exercises i think shows that most likely VAG teams will keep the same engines for many more years to come if engine rules remain the same, current engines have much more to give yet... but a new battle for the more efficient and more powerful electric motors will go in tandem (i think Toyota can surprise yet in this).

[GTfour]

Fuel usage is still very high as to compared with roadgoing sporstcars. When seeing the avarage usage per lap(in the order of a litre per 3,5km) I think they're still easily able to clip the 700bhp mark. Don't forget Porsche is allways very conservative with their stated bhp numbers. Add to that the effect of these high efficiency turbo's and Porsches abillity to work magic on engines...

[hcl123]

well this is hammering at old obsolete engine designs... the all reciprocating design involves just too much waste...

This is one on diesel(easily multifuel even pneumatic (air)) tested by the Australian Army can do 3000 to 4000 hp (5000Nm ~4700 rpm) ( depending on tune up) without turbocharger

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfE8eiZvYXM

The double version can almost double that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_l2BBVoOIQ

We talking about a 70kg or so engine in a toroidal cylinder config ( its a rotary, the best i came across) that is equivalent to a ~6 L 32 cylinder 4 stroke engine (double version to 64 cylinders) ... ~40:1 power to weigh ratio (powerful jet engine territory)... this could perhaps not waste more than 1 litre of fuel per 3.5km, put to good use, unfortunately in the undrivable territory with that much power...

[the 'crazy' inventor talking about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1c51UgA7v8 ]

A fad anyway, future is electric... and ICE can still have a word for long time as range extenders... perhaps when politics and paradigma change we can have at 'prototypes' races, ICEs only coupled to electric generators... Porsche for sure seems the most well equipped for that transition.(ICE runing all the time at the most efficient sweat spot for sure wont do 8 miles per gallon)

[GTfour]

Interesting links there hcl123. Allthough I think it'll be some time before we see these designs anywere near our daily transportation, I find it good to see more and more research being done on how to make our ICE engines more efficient and powerfull. This kind of development has been standing still for far to long. I really like Mr. Koenigseggs' idea of the camless engine as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bch5B23_pu0

I do however not go along in your idea 'that it's all going to be electrical'. Quite simply, to replace all ICE powered vehicles in this world, one would need unfathomable amounts of copper and neodimium. Especially the latter is only to be found in very small amounts, not to mention the very poisonous procedure to produce it. Electrical engined transportation will therefore be limited to a small amount of our daily needs. Some exclusive cars, some short distance vehicles but never to be a real competitor for fossil fueled vehicles. On top of that, the reserves of fossil fuel deposits are of such a magnitude that this will be around for at least a couple of centuries to come. Only actively forbidding the use of this(on very dubious grounds) will make electric propulsion anywhere near a 'real competitor' for the ICE.

On the subject of hybrid powered racing cars, I would love to see a rotary generator/electric propulsion set up though...

[hcl123]

I do however not go along in your idea 'that it's all going to be electrical'. Quite simply, to replace all ICE powered vehicles in this world, one would need unfathomable amounts of copper and neodimium. Especially the latter is only to be found in very small amounts, not to mention the very poisonous procedure to produce it.

well that is the part of when ppl talk about Porsche don't understand... engine is important of course, but as important is the electric motor(s)... besides the engine efficiency technological race, there will be another technological race about electric motors, and in this one Porsche is clearly winning,,, by now. There are many different type of electric motors, not all are the same, and not all output the same performance on the same quantity of charge, and we only started to scratch the surface...

there are many electric motor tech that don't need rare earth materials (permanent magnets)... AC induction is one of them, developed by Tesla long ago... and is a mighty tech, matter of fact used in the most talked about electric car (BEV) right now, the American Tesla Model S of Tesla Motor Co (perhaps why the name, because of Tesla AC induction tech).... 3,2s 0 to 60mph with 2 motors in a AWD config for a ~2 ton car !!(most impressive) (and no permanent magnets)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbVEkh4AMqM

tuned up to 3.05s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px8qdgWW9As

Even Saleen of LM fame is starting to look at it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWdatUMNmTI

So don't be worry, even if we run out of rare earth materials there wont be any lack of power... the big problem are batteries and range, but if the industry can learn something from WEC with all its advanced energy recuperating tricks, and new much more powerful batteries on the horizon, that wont be a problem soon to.

[hcl123]

Oh!... and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bch5B23_pu0 which i think is an electromagnetic valve actuation system(no cam shaft needed), its forbidden by rules, rules are very specific about it being forbidden ( was used in F1 some years ago, also banned afterwards).

And is banned not because its unfair, gives drivers help, is unsafe... is banned perhaps because it can give up to 30% more efficiency ... exactly too much for the gentleman at FIA/ACO can deal with (and oil companies duh!).

[and and rotary valves... which would make the engine breath enormously better... augmenting efficiency by a lot to... and old tech even thought long ago for F1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWb70X0xELA ... eh! forbidden ]

[hcl123]

The more i look at it the more amazed... that Porsche's hybrid system management even has reserves, incredibly powerful... and with reserves!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnStanTuDOo

Amazing just after an unbelivable strong launching after 2th chicane... #17 still has reserves and gives a jolt of hybrid power to stay ahead of the Audi that passed him in the braking zone of the 1th chicane (clearly audible)

[GTfour]

Great spot! Indeed incredable how the Porsche seems to have something in reserve to eek out the needed advantage. It also seems to go a bit flat when the E-engine cuts out.

Electric motors may just evolve into something usefull, but as you point out yourself, battery storage will be the achilles heel. I for one don't see it happen in the near future that a sportscar will win the 24 hours of Le Mans purely on electric power. The amount of energy needed to do this is so large that this will pose a serious challenge to put in any kind of chemical storage. It is this what makes petrol/diesel so unbeatable.

[hcl123]

well ICE will be integral of the 'motorsport spirit' for many years to come ... but concerning that specific issue of batteries,,, just don't recharge them, replace them(could be much faster than replace the front of a prototype), primary batteries which are much more energy dense could be used instead(lithium-air, aluminium-air, lower temperature molten salt types, all with possible more than 1 order of magnitude more energy than common lithium-ion), they are not rechargeable, but that doesn't matter(perhaps 20 to 25 secs enough for a replacement for 10 to 15 more laps at LM).

[cokata]

[GasperG]

I'm very interested to see this road relevance

[Spyderman]

Le Mans : Facts and Figures http://newsroom.porsche.com/en/motor...res-11135.html

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Le Mans : Facts and Figures http://newsroom.porsche.com/en/motor...res-11135.html

I noticed they spent 195 minutes behind the safety cars. I wonder how many records would have been set without that time loss?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

I noticed they spent 195 minutes behind the safety cars. I wonder how many records would have been set without that time loss?

Distance record for sure!

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

I noticed they spent 195 minutes behind the safety cars. I wonder how many records would have been set without that time loss?

All that was needed was a little over 10 minutes less and we would have had a new distance record. A real shame really.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

I noticed they spent 195 minutes behind the safety cars. I wonder how many records would have been set without that time loss?

They counted slow zones as neutralizations though. The actual time under Safety Car was about 2h20m (I clocked it approximately from trackside), and in 2010 (when the last distance record was set) we had about 1h40m of SC.

[GTfour]

It makes me laugh that this oh so 'efficient' and 'environmentally responsible' race car averaged some 8 mpg during the 24 hours.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by GTfour

It makes me laugh that this oh so 'efficient' and 'environmentally responsible' race car averaged some 8 mpg during the 24 hours.

Try going flat out in your car and see how much you will manage.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by GTfour

It makes me laugh that this oh so 'efficient' and 'environmentally responsible' race car averaged some 8 mpg during the 24 hours.

Two ways to look at efficiency. Fixed performance and variable resources, or fixed resources and variable performance. In this case it is fixed resources. We should be impressed with how fast the cars are given the restrictions. If the goal was the high MPG I am sure that is what we would have seen.

Richard

[Starfish Primer]

Originally Posted by GTfour

It makes me laugh that this oh so 'efficient' and 'environmentally responsible' race car averaged some 8 mpg during the 24 hours.

Racing with hybrids or diesels is not about efficiency, is about marketing. They show the potential buyers that a hybrid car can perform and is not a golf cart like many people think. Audi switched to diesel because is better for racing?, no, they switched to show that a diesel car can be fast.

[Richard C]

Well, I view this less about hybrids or saving the world but rather a series in which the rules clearly make efficiency the focus (with allowances that required hybrid usage).

Marketing can make it about saving the world, road car relevance, etc. And I do think there is some level of relevance to production cars. Its not all just smoke and mirrors.

Richard

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by GTfour

It makes me laugh that this oh so 'efficient' and 'environmentally responsible' race car averaged some 8 mpg during the 24 hours.

It is, of course, very impressive.