The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[TF110]

What I don't get is how people can say it's not a full Toyota effort? Oreca isn't apart of their whole squad. Personelle may be there for a helping hand, but this is just a way for Toyota to possibly have 3 cars imo, and have experience within one of their squads to set a tone for the rest of their squads.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by TF110

What I don't get is how people can say it's not a full Toyota effort? Oreca isn't apart of their whole squad. Personelle may be there for a helping hand, but this is just a way for Toyota to possibly have 3 cars imo, and have experience within one of their squads to set a tone for the rest of their squads.

The three car concept seems to fly in the face of what Toyota were saying in Autosport last week. Quite possibly in the future that could be the case. Maybe it is a case of Toyota saying to De Chaunac "you help us get off the ground and we'll help you in turn when we are."

I really don't know what to think. One part of me feels Oreca wouldn't have done this unless they had some decent guarantees. Then another part thinks this is just another barrier (TMG-Oreca) for Toyota to put up and make it easier to get out if they don't like what they see. Time will tell.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by JAG

Aside from their extensive experience ORECA likely got the Toyota deal because they've performed well against factory teams.

Whenever the next manufactuer oportunity arrises, be it a link-up or customer car availability, the criteria for choosing the partner will come down to A/ How they performaced at Le Mans B/ How they performed in the WEC.

It's difficult to judge the quality of an ALMS P1 winning team with the present competition, if Rebellion were to chose the ALMS they'd be title contenders but all the eyes would be on how they perform at Le Mans. A poor showing there could see them sidelined, a poor Le Mans showing for Pescarol, OAK, Strakka etc. could be redeemed during other WEC events.

More pressing, who would fund a UK team decamping for a season in the US, and if the money is available for a campaign, be it Toyota NA or a sponsor, why wouldn't a US team pick-up a pair of Lola-Toyota's and do it themselves?Teams like Peugeot are the exception, most link up with an experienced operetor, i,e Joest Audi and Penske Porsche, in other cases a team builds and runs the cars as in TWR Jaguar.

Ok , I hear your points .

If they plan on contesting P1 , there is no possibility other than WEC or ALMS . Perhaps Toyota would support an ALMS effort and at least bag one championship in 2012 , which considering the opposition in ALMS isnt a bad gamble . Better than no championship and good ammo for the PR guys , especially if the main effort falls flat on its ttis .

There is no point going head to head in the WEC , against the mother of them all , and the parent sponsor , Toyota , as the chances are they will beat the works effort , taking into consideration new car woes .

I see no issue with money within the team . That hugely is financed by high class watchs . Im sure they have a large market in USA . Do you really know anyone who owns a Rebellion Watch !?!?!? Must be a big market .

To be honest . P1 teams (ALMS) have kinda lost their way . Through various restrictor and areo breaks over the years , I feel the benchmark has become dim .

Rebellion isnt a British Team , Its Swiss , Bart Hayden happens to run it . Its financed by 2 Swiss buisness men who happen to like sportscar racing , just a bit !!!

Good point , It would be great to see someone like Intersport and Autocon join forces and get a brace of them together , share the costs . More developed than an off the shelf Lola with works supported help , to a limit . Couldnt think of a better deal , more than a new HPD to be honest .

[JAG]

You have to consider what Rebellion's ultimate goal is, a Le Mans win and factory support, the ALMS ultimatum was a means to nudge the ACO into line with their thinking, giving them a greater chance to showcase themselves in the WEC.

If Toyota were paying the bills for an ALMS campaign that's a different matter, but as I say, there would be US teams lining up for such a deal.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Good point , It would be great to see someone like Intersport and Autocon join forces and get a brace of them together , share the costs . More developed than an off the shelf Lola with works supported help , to a limit . Couldnt think of a better deal , more than a new HPD to be honest .

If I am the AutoCon guys, would you trust your money with Jon Field? I would not! Anyway, I think the Autocon guys run to have fun. I'm not so sure if they are worried all that much about winning. I'm not saying they don't care about winning, but I doubt they cry every weekend after they have lost.

Originally Posted by JAG

You have to consider what Rebellion's ultimate goal is, a Le Mans win and factory support, the ALMS ultimatum was a means to nudge the ACO into line with their thinking, giving them a greater chance to showcase themselves in the WEC.

I'm sure the ALMS rumor is an attempted power play by Rebellion to get the rules in their favor. There is probably something to that. That said, it's hard to know what Rebellion's goals are exactly. Hayden's goals may be different from Pesci's goals. Maybe Pesci's #1 goal is to win Le Mans and get a factory deal and all of that. Then again, his #1 goal may be to sell some timepieces. If that is the case, it might make more sense to go to the ALMS and win and get lots of airtime rather than run in the WEC and get very little airtime especially if Toyota runs more than a couple of races.

[Speed-King]

I don't remember where I've read it - but apparently, there's only one place in the US where you can buy Rebellion watches. Doesn't sound like a big market for them to me. They might of course want to change that...

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I don't remember where I've read it - but apparently, there's only one place in the US where you can buy Rebellion watches. Doesn't sound like a big market for them to me. They might of course want to change that...

http://www.rebellion-timepieces.com/...region=america ?

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I don't remember where I've read it - but apparently, there's only one place in the US where you can buy Rebellion watches. Doesn't sound like a big market for them to me. They might of course want to change that...

Only one, but there are only 11 places in the world total according to the website. Only 10 if you don't count Rebellion themselves. There are no Rebellion retailers in Belgium, France, China, Japan, or anywhere in South America so the only places where their watches are sold that are potential WEC countries are the US and the UK (one retailer each). Well, I'm sure they're trying to increase their distribution. Anyway, the ALMS gets publicity and coverage in other countries as well so it's not like them only running in the ALMS means they only get coverage in North America.

[Mal]

Its clear to me that Toyota have simply followed the Audi model by hooking up with the best and most successful race operator available.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Mal

Its clear to me that Toyota have simply followed the Audi model by hooking up with the best and most successful race operator available.

Yep ..... thats what it seems to me too . Took Pug awhile to work up the level their at right now .

What a top prize for Oreca . But really , it was only a matter of time before Oreca pulled a big fish outta the pond .

Now , I can see an 3 cars at Le Mans . 2 for Toyota and one for Oreca . This is getting more exciting by the day .

[AGD]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Now , I can see an 3 cars at Le Mans . 2 for Toyota and one for Oreca . This is getting more exciting by the day .

What do you mean? Isn't Oreca pretty much Toyota from the operational side? Maybe you mean the third car will be entered as an Oreca ala the North America Audi? I guess that could be possible, but the rumors are that Toyota will only have 1 or 2 cars. I'm not sure if I buy the 1 car rumor, but 2 might be right. We'll have to see.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by AGD

What do you mean? Isn't Oreca pretty much Toyota from the operational side? Maybe you mean the third car will be entered as an Oreca ala the North America Audi? I guess that could be possible, but the rumors are that Toyota will only have 1 or 2 cars. I'm not sure if I buy the 1 car rumor, but 2 might be right. We'll have to see.

John Dagys tweeted that Oreca are simply there to run the factory equipment. Not run stuff of their own.

I hope Oreca being there gives Toyota the confidence to enter 2 cars.

[deggis]

^
http://twitter.com/#!/johndagys/stat...53583212855296
+
http://twitter.com/#!/johndagys/stat...54217500659715

[Pandamasque]

That may still mean 3 factory cars, 2 under Toyota Motorsport banner and one as Toyota Oreca or something like that (a-la Audi Sport Joest + Audi Sport N.A.).

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

That may still mean 3 factory cars, 2 under Toyota Motorsport banner and one as Toyota Oreca or something like that (a-la Audi Sport Joest + Audi Sport N.A.).

Thats what I was getting at .

[TF110]

Like I was saying earlier that others were denying. Toyota has the money and manpower, Peugeot and Audi use 3 cars with a separate team, I just figured Toyota would do this as well with ORECA being more than an outsider with Toyota machinery.

[Mal]

You may well be right but the reality is that the entry is nothing more than a name on the form to get round the regulations and it doesn't affect the operation of the car

[Simmi]

E-I have an interview up today with Pascal Vasselon from Toyota.

http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ance-8621.html

A lot of non-committal answers and the interview was conducted before the Oreca announcement. He does say the driver announcements will be made soon which is something.

[AGD]

Toyota USA seems rather confused. They painted up a 2012 Toyota Yaris B-spec Club Racer car for the SEMA show in the 1998 GT-One Le Mans pole-winning paint scheme. That's all fine and great, except the GT-One did not qualify for pole position in 1998! Oh well, I guess it is the thought that counts.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases...club+racer.htm

[courageous]

For 2013 I would definitely expect 3 cars (one japanese crew, an ORECA french team & one for the internationals), but Toyota have implied that they are going to spend next year building up gradually.

[JAG]

I really think if Toyota just wanted an experienced team boss they'd have employed De Chaunac independantly, keeping ORECA seperate to pursue their own LMP programs.

PR announcing the arrival of ORECA, and what a great step this is for the organistion, sounds like they will be to Toyota what Joest are to Audi, dictating race operations and in it for the long-term.

http://www.lemans.org/en/news/Great_...ries_5505.html

[Japanese Samurai]

Minoru Hayashi (president of Dome) predicts that diesel car is 3.5 seconds faster than gasoline car in the 2012 regulation.
http://twitter.com/#!/dome_hayashi/s...43493795102720

[CTD]

Originally Posted by JAG

I really think if Toyota just wanted an experienced team boss they'd have employed De Chaunac independantly, keeping ORECA seperate to pursue their own LMP programs.

PR announcing the arrival of ORECA, and what a great step this is for the organistion, sounds like they will be to Toyota what Joest are to Audi, dictating race operations and in it for the long-term.

http://www.lemans.org/en/news/Great_...ries_5505.html

Hmm, not sure you could lure De Chaunac away from his life project and team whom he has worked on for so many years!

[TF110]

Originally Posted by kurski

I do not think, because Vasselon left the Toyota team january 2010.

Seems you were misinformed. I never heard of him leaving Toyota (TMG), so I figured he was apart of this project. I just asked for confirmation. But here is an interview with him. He is the 'director' of TMG, so it was a no-brainer he is apart of this LMP project. His comments seem reassuring.

-Will the data of the Hybrid Lexus raced at Tokachi be an help for the LMP1 programme?


The Supra Hybrid HV-R was a part of the story of hybrid motorsport development within Toyota, and this story now includes our World Endurance Championship entry next year. Our colleagues within TMC learned a tremendous amount about hybrid technology during that project, and advanced the technology significantly so it was an important step.

Seems like the Supra technology has been furthered and could be apart of their LMP. Also-

- Do you think to be able to save some time in the pits thanks to a better fuel efficiency ?

Obviously two key performance factors in endurance racing are outright speed and fuel efficiency. We believe our hybrid system and LMP1 chassis will be competitive in both areas. Until we run the car on track, we cannot say for sure how efficient it will be but naturally we hope to be extremely competitive in this area.

Just to hear those words to me is reassuring.

[kurski]

Originally Posted by TF110

Seems you were misinformed. I never heard of him leaving Toyota (TMG), so I figured he was apart of this project. He is the 'director' of TMG, so it was a no-brainer he is apart of this LMP project. His comments seem reassuring.

You're right, I was wrong recollection of Vasselon the past. I remember when you Vasselon talked about earlier HRT-engine project, and was under the impression that he left, then the Toyota, but it is good to hear that this did not happen.