The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Maybe because he was asked? If somebody asked him if there was a reason for them not being quicker this weekend should he say nothing just so it does not sound like an excuse?

I don't recall the same type of replies from Audi last year, or that often from Peugeot back in their days.
That is what I'm basing my opinion on.

[Maelochs]

Why should M. Vasselon say the same sorts of things Dr. Ulrich would say? They are two different people.

Anyway, I found the extra information interesting. As MyNameIsNigel pointed out, they give us insight into ways things work and don't work that we didn't have before. I call that "education," and I can't really ever get enough.

Maybe I just need more of it, who knows? Maybe when I am finally educated enough, I will get upset as often as possible over as little as possible. For now, I am still naively appreciating life.

Pretty good race, too. Much better than I expected.

[TF110]

Kinoshita said the same thing. Theres only 4 hybrid zones on a track 4.3km and the same on a track 5.5 km? Sao Paulo is 15 turns and COTA is 20! So yes, what would be the reason Toyota was not as quick relatively? More track with equal hybrid zones. And thats their strong point, the hybrid.

As far as their F1 foray, it was under different management from the beginning to 2007. 2008 onward is when Pascal Vasselon took over as technical director. And really, Howett said they needed better drivers. Who rates Trulli and Glock? Where were they after Toyota? Lotus (Caterham) and Marussia.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Isn't it expected when you don't win? A leftover from the team's former F1 life perhaps....?

at that comment ........

[TF110]

According to Vasselon, Toyota had trouble with the fuel. They could have done 1 or 2 more laps per stint.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by TF110

According to Vasselon, Toyota had trouble with the fuel. They could have done 1 or 2 more laps per stint.

I should have been more specific, dailysportscar had the quote that they were having an issue using all the fuel. Not sure if it was a pick up issue but they left a couple laps on the table in a stint.

[TF110]

Alex Wurz headed to TMG for testing. Sim work or on track I wonder?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by TF110

Alex Wurz headed to TMG for testing. Sim work or on track I wonder?

Wurz answered the question in another tweet confirming it was a tire test at Magny Cours. Lapierre was also at the test.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

Wurz answered the question in another tweet confirming it was a tire test at Magny Cours. Lapierre was also at the test.

It would seem Toyota were not the only ones testing at Magny-Cours according to Michelin's statement.

[FstrthnU]

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11310146...r-displacement

Related to the LMP1 car? (upsizing rather than downsizing + turbo)

[Pandamasque]

Numerous times I came across statements from actual road car engineers in 'less official' circumstances saying that small turbocharged engines only make sense in terms of achieving the best numbers at the official fuel consumption and emissions tests that have little to do with real world driving, while in real world better efficiency could be achieved by mildly stressing a larger N/A engine rather than wringing out a tiny turbocharged one to achieve the same performance.

[TF110]

Toyota has plenty of experience with direct injection as well. I wonder if that will feature on their lmp1 engine?

[TF110]

Heres a video of a Fuji lap in the simulator with Anthony Davidson
https://t.co/rCb9UYHaih

[tyronnezx]

i think Toyota will get their ass kicked and get the wake-up call at home turf at this round. they need it, and most importantly TMC management needs it, so they dont go all half arse on Audi and Porsche next year. Big Toyota Fan just disappointed with their effort this year

[The Badger]

The only thing disappoints me about Toyota's effort tis year is that they haven't run 2 cars all season and a 3rd for Le Mans .

I understand their operating on a smaller budget than some , and I feel they have done a pretty good job this year ..... but results must come next year , regularly .

[TF110]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

i think Toyota will get their ass kicked and get the wake-up call at home turf at this round. they need it, and most importantly TMC management needs it, so they dont go all half arse on Audi and Porsche next year. Big Toyota Fan just disappointed with their effort this year

Whats the point in running two cars all year when youre not running favorable rules? They already lost LeMans and the wec title, I'd rather they put the money wasted on running another car behind diesels to a 2014 car that trounces the competition.

Originally Posted by The Badger

The only thing disappoints me about Toyota's effort tis year is that they haven't run 2 cars all season and a 3rd for Le Mans .

I understand their operating on a smaller budget than some , and I feel they have done a pretty good job this year ..... but results must come next year , regularly .

If they dont get screwed by the regulations they shouldn't have a problem winning like 2012. The thing that interests me is the % drop in fuel allowance. Not taking into consideration the fuel flow but just the tank size, theres a slightly bigger drop in tank size for petrol compared to diesel. Petrol of 66.9L to 54.8L for Diesel. Compared to now with 73(76)L Petrol to 58L Diesel. The Petrol cars have 88% the amount of fuel (compared to 76L) while Diesel has 94% (compared to 58L).

[gustavobamba]

As you can see, with my avatar I´m a Porsche Fan, but next year will be very very dificult for Toyota.

1st point of view: Audi with their air system and other stuff will want to continue their winning form and show to Porsche that they are still the Best guys out there (Show them who´s the Boss!!!!!)

2nd point of view: Porsche is doing an amazing preparation for next year, both in terms of performance ans resourses. They will be serious contenders for both WEC an Le Mans. Thats my opinion/wish :-)

3rd point of view: If Toyota don´t increase their budget and bring something powerfull to the game they will be "smash" by Audi and Porsche". Assuming that in Le Mans all will have 3 cars, Toyota cannot afford to be 7th, 8th and 9th.

I know that in motorsport many things can happen but right know we all know that Audi will continue strong, Porsche will be the new kid on the block, but who know´s how to win and a Toyota with more experience but needing to step up their game.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

If they dont get screwed by the regulations they shouldn't have a problem winning like 2012. The thing that interests me is the % drop in fuel allowance. Not taking into consideration the fuel flow but just the tank size, theres a slightly bigger drop in tank size for petrol compared to diesel. Petrol of 66.9L to 54.8L for Diesel. Compared to now with 73(76)L Petrol to 58L Diesel. The Petrol cars have 88% the amount of fuel (compared to 76L) while Diesel has 94% (compared to 58L).

Energy-wise, the 2014 rules are supposed to put everybody on equal footing. The 66.9l fuel tank capacity for petrol engines vs. the 54.8l fuel tank capacity for diesel is supposed to ensure this.

I don't see the point in comparing the "% drop in fuel allowance" between 2013 and 2014.

As a matter of fact, petrol engines can currently take advantage of a far more "generous" fuel allocation under the 2013 rules compared to diesel engines. In that respect at least, Toyota are currently "favoured" by the 2013 rules. It's therefore quite obvious that the % drop in fuel allowance is going to be more substantial for petrol engines if you compare 2013 with 2014. That merely reflects the fact that adjustments have to be carried to ensure a more balanced situation in terms of fuel allocation.

In any event, 2014 is going to be the "Big Test" for Toyota. The time for "excuses" will be over. There is another big player in the arena, namely Porsche. I am looking forward to seeing how Toyota compares to Porsche, how the "big" NA engine solution compares to the "small" turbocharged engine solution. We will then see who made the right technical choices.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Energy-wise, the 2014 rules are supposed to put everybody on equal footing. The 66.9l fuel tank capacity for petrol engines vs. the 54.8l fuel tank capacity for diesel is supposed to ensure this.

I don't see the point in comparing the "% drop in fuel allowance" between 2013 and 2014.

As a matter of fact, petrol engines can currently take advantage of a far more "generous" fuel allocation under the 2013 rules compared to diesel engines. In that respect at least, Toyota are currently "favoured" by the 2013 rules. It's therefore quite obvious that the % drop in fuel allowance is going to be more substantial for petrol engines if you compare 2013 with 2014. That merely reflects the fact that adjustments have to be carried to ensure a more balanced situation in terms of fuel allocation.

Seriously? 6% drop in tank size vs. a 12% drop shouldnt be compared? Everyone knows the diesel fuel is favored. Its volumetric energy density is some 11% higher than Petrol! Somewhere around 38.5MJ per Liter compared to 32.18 for petrol. Not to mention the economy difference.

In any event, 2014 is going to be the "Big Test" for Toyota. The time for "excuses" will be over. There is another big player in the arena, namely Porsche. I am looking forward to seeing how Toyota compares to Porsche, how the "big" NA engine solution compares to the "small" turbocharged engine solution. We will then see who made the right technical choices.

What're the excuses? A lot of people claim this, but no other lmp car running petrol has even come close to the diesels. Maybe you will say they should choose diesel, but the ACO's job is to ensure a level playing field for either fuel technology.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by TF110

Whats the point in running two cars all year when youre not running favorable rules? They already lost LeMans and the wec title, I'd rather they put the money wasted on running another car behind diesels to a 2014 car that trounces the competition.

2012 was their golden ticket to win. instead of playing conservative they should have thrown all resources into making a solid car. instead, at the first drop of the hat, they went into money save mode. u'll see just how hard it is next year, then look back at this post

[TF110]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

2012 was their golden ticket to win. instead of playing conservative they should have thrown all resources into making a solid car. instead, at the first drop of the hat, they went into money save mode. u'll see just how hard it is next year, then look back at this post

No, I wont. I dont think anyone assumed they could win their first year. If you did then you have some unreasonable expectations. How long did it take Peugeot to come back and win? They even had 3 cars and it didn't matter.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

What're the excuses? A lot of people claim this, but no other lmp car running petrol has even come close to the diesels. Maybe you will say they should choose diesel, but the ACO's job is to ensure a level playing field for either fuel technology.

I am not at all interested in the recurrent "diesel is favoured over petrol" debate. I am more interested in finding out how the petrol duel between Porsche and Toyota is going to unfold. Who is going to win this one ?

[TF110]

Unfortunately, you can't ignore it because it exists and there will be at least 2 diesels in the WEC and LeMans. I dont support Porsche. I'm glad they're back but they will need to have some clever solutions. Battery hybrids are not very powerful and running only the front axle I think they'll do 6MJ max but probably 4. That will allow them a higher fuel flow, though so they may have a good strategy with their engine being more powerful.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

Unfortunately, you can't ignore it because it exists and there will be at least 2 diesels in the WEC and LeMans. I dont support Porsche. I'm glad they're back but they will need to have some clever solutions. Battery hybrids are not very powerful and running only the front axle I think they'll do 6MJ max but probably 4. That will allow them a higher fuel flow, though so they may have a good strategy with their engine being more powerful.

I don't care about the "diesel vs. petrol" debate as I believe that this debate is sterile and, more importantly, is going to be moot in view of the entry into force of the new regulations. On paper at least, the new 2014 Technical Regulations are supposed to put both technologies on equal footing. That is the intended goal. Moreover, with two strong manufacturers competing in the "petrol class" against a single diesel manufacturer (so it seems), the ACO-FIA will have no other choice than to act if necessary. We are not any more talking about one or two diesels manufacturers competing against privateers running in the "petrol class". This time is over.

This being said, I am pretty sure that this debate will pop up again in the future if Audi happen to remain strongly at the top of the charts. But that's irrelevant as far as the "petrol duel" between Toyota and Porsche is concerned. Porsche are serious guys (as Toyota are) and they are obviously committed to make it work, budget-wise.

[TF110]

Diesel is more powerful. Diesel is more efficient. Theres no denying that. If there is an equivalence issue, this time theres Porsche there to also look at. So while you don't care about the debate, Im pretty sure it will be a talking point. This time around if theres an issue it wont be just with one team on balancing to diesel, but two.

So Im keen to see if they get it right this time instead of letting one fuel walk over the competition.