DMN 2008 - drivers, cars, regs?

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by chezza

I'm back in Benfleet...I have your form Eric.

Ooh who you picking up tyres from?!

My daughter had a puncture last week on the A127. I told her to bring it home so I could get it mended but she seems to be glued to Benfleet at the moment or more likely her latest BF.

[chezza]

aaaah!

[pdd144c]

John has just bought a Seat Leon Cupra which he will be using for the next few races. The Mondeo will be completed once we finish moving to our new units in Basingstoke. Or I should say he would be using the Leon if Colin Barnett hadn't seen it fit to ban the Seat spoilers according to a letter I received this morning.

Looks like we have two options, either run in Class Rod, sorry class A, or go and run in the LMA, where they will welcome us with open arms and put the car in a class that we actually stand a chance of winning. I do find it a bit off putting that this rule is being pushed so hard, what about all the other spoilers out there don't comply?!

And what about rule 5.4.6, when will that be enforced?! If it wasn't for Greg breaking the trend, it would be over 40 straights wins by now. If that's not 'too dominant' what is?!

[graham bahr]

I should say he would be using the Leon if Colin Barnett hadn't seen it fit to ban the Seat spoilers according to a letter I received this morning.

Looks like we have two options, either run in Class Rod, sorry class A, or go and run in the LMA, where they will welcome us with open arms and put the car in a class that we actually stand a chance of winning. I do find it a bit off putting that this rule is being pushed so hard, what about all the other spoilers out there don't comply?!

Colin Barnett hasn't banned anything, he has done the job of the eligibility scruitineer and given a definitive ruling, as the letter would of said you also have two other options which are to either remove or lower the spoilers.

at the end of the day the rule regarding rear spoilers isnt new its been there for a couple of seasons, its upto the competitors to ensure there cars comply with the regulations, it EVERY competitors job to read and understand the rules and field a car that complies.

as for enforcing the rule hard, i don't think so, the officials at brands hatch could of taken action resulting in the seats all scoring ZERO points, or given time or grid position penalties but they didn't.

sadly the organising committee is in a bit of a no win situation we have had competitors complaining that rules arnt being enforced, so when we have an eligibility scruitieer present people now complain they are being inforced

i am unaware of any other cars out there with non complant spoilers, but if there are they will be picked up, or you always have the option to protest.

[pdd144c]

When we discussed the rules late last year at Brands for 2008, it was deemed that any car that was put into Class A but clearly not capable of running a Class A pace would be put down to Class B as the organisers saw fit. As the Seats are 3-4 seconds off the pace of Class A surely they should still be a Class B car? I have no desire to change a car that has cost me lots of money and time in setting up correctly.

It appears to me that this rule was only in to get Greg’s DTM Mercedes out of Class B as Rod didn’t want to be beaten by a Class B car. It seemed perfectly ok to put a Class B car into Class A as it was too fast, even though it fitted the rules to the letter. So surely if this works one way, it should work the other.

Also Graham why have you dodged my comment about the other rule? Do you not think 32 wins in a row is 'too dominant'?

[martinlabatts]

at the end of the day rules are rules

but as you say this is not a new rule

its the same one as last year so why did none of the seat leons ever get pulled on this before?

are you saying that all class 2 seat leons from the last two seasons have been braking the rules all this time.

i can understand if some one removes the seat leon spoilers ( that seat fitted for the seat championship) and put one that was bigger or different on

but these spoilers are only for cosmetic value and have little downforce anyway,

they come with the cars from seat sport ( part of the car)

so in my opion should be the same as the clio cars with there roof spoiler and made a special case for.

[graham bahr]

as far as enforcing the rules go thats down to the eligibility scruitieers and no body else, the eligibility scruitieers has a free hand, whether something gets picked up can be luck of the draw just like safety scruiteering, just about everyone has at some point fallen foul of the safety scruiteering with something thats wrong, the argument that it was like it all last year isnt any defence in either situation, look at it anotherway in a simlar situation, you end up in court after being nicked for speeding, the judge isnt going to let you off because the coppers didnt catch you all the other times you were speeding is he?

i cannot comment on clio spoilers because the eligability scruitieer is also looking into them.

whilst i understand what martin is saying with regards to making allowances for the seat spoilers unfortunatly MSA rules dont allow it, once the regulations are approved they cannot be changed, only under exceptional circumstances on safety grounds.

if we were able to say ok these cars can run with an illegal rear spoiler, then it would set a preceident and we would have to do the same for others, and pretty soon we would have no rules.

also chaps you have to look at it from the view point of other competitors how does it look to the other 30 cars on the grid?

if as martin says the spoilers make no difference then its hardly a big deal to change them is it?

with regards to rod his car was actaully running with 30kg of extra weight at brands, but how far do you go? you can end up putting so much weight in a car things get dangerous, did anyone not notice the nigel craig actually posted the fastest lap in race 2?

[pdd144c]

I along with the other Leon drivers have no interest in just making up the numbers up in Class A. They won’t be competitive, simple as that. So as per the meeting last year they will be put back to Class B. So why not solve the problem by leaving them where they are now?! As for lowering the spoilers, the brackets only just come out of the boot lid now, so that’s out of the question. I also don’t think anyone on the grid has an issue with the spoilers staying either…

[bdwoody]

oooooooooh...i cant wait for my 13valve 3cyl renault to be ready and back to a full compliment of valves and cylinders and get racing with you lot ,its gettin good init........

[Scooby 96]

[

with regards to rod his car was actaully running with 30kg of extra weight at brands, but how far do you go? you can end up putting so much weight in a car things get dangerous, did anyone not notice the nigel craig actually posted the fastest lap in race 2?[/quote]

thank you Graham. Add another 215kg to Rods and we should be somewhere near equal weight! Scooby goes 1250kg without the 15 stone lump behind the wheel !!!! Guess Rods weight was nearer 1000kg (1035kg now?) Always thought a minimum weight with the driver included, weighed in as finished is the best way to even things up. 1350kg would seem to be a good starting point!!!!!! or I start to diet, car and myself (unlikely) Nigel

[retro_msport]

I always thought Rods car was around 1147KG

so with the 35kg added its up to 1182

Thought roadgoing scoobies were 1240kg with all the trim ..

not starting nothing .. just saying ya picks ya car ..ya takes ya choice

[Eddy V]

Agree with that Gary.

[retro_msport]

Its the variety of cars that makes the championship interesting ..if we get bogged down with weights and measures and this and that .. we will end up with one make in each class .. ie very boring or lots of tin damaged

[retro_msport]

Greg proved that the fight with Rod wasnt a one sided affair .. the Merc and the Falcon .. both pushed Rod .. and thats with Greg still learning the cars, Also the 2 skylines out this year .. I don't think Rod will have it that easy this year .. and personally i dont think the winner overall is coming from classes A/B/or C ...

Sorry Richard, and yes i may be just a lot biased but I think you should have Rod's 35kg

[bdwoody]

agreed all cars that are not yellow should carry 100kg of lead in the boot....

[andypipe]

Originally Posted by bdwoody

agreed all cars that are not yellow should carry 100kg of lead in the boot....

Yes please

[Copperbottom]

Originally Posted by bdwoody

agreed all cars that are not yellow or WHITE should carry 100kg of lead in the boot....

Have you seen the price of lead recently

[bdwoody]

yep and i got a lot of yella paint too......

[martinlabatts]

it will be interesting to see how many seat leons run with no rear spolier or a different one

and how many just race somewhere else

lets not forget we the seat leon owners did not fit theses rear spoilers

they are fitted by seat sport.

seams a bit strange that the championship will end up pushing away racers for a rule no one has upheld for two years.

chazy that you are now telling people like andy thompson that has ran and won with his car in this championship for atleast two seasons that he now has to remove his rear spoiler.


when are we going to get some rules which make senses?

like cosses running 500 bhp plus in class 2 ??

o yer they have only four injectors? even then with a rs500 eight injector plenum fitted,

this sort of rubbish rules is five years out of date, as every cosse tuners knows you can get just as much power with four larger injectors

in the good old days grey injectors where the largest but these days you can readly buy ones twice there size and make an easy 600 plus with just four

injectors

still in class 2

very easy to sort by class with the turbo size.

not so much a problem for me as i have other race cars i can use,

but i feel for the guys who have now to change or replace someone just for the hell of it.

thats my two pence worth

[chezza]

Just to chuck my 2 pence worth in.

Rules is rules. It is up to you to run with a car that complies to those rules. If you don't you run the risk of being picked up and having your car reclassified...simple as that.

Also this is down to the eligibility scrutineer to enforce and nobody else...and as a judge of fact what he says goes.

[Eddy V]

Isn't it possible to allow the Seats and Clios to run their spoiler as they have been fitted by Seat and Renault?
Now if someone was to convert a street Seat or Clio and built it to Cup spec, I'd say sorry sir, that spoiler isn't allowed as your car isn't a former Cup car.


It isn't as if those spoilers are going to bring oodles of speed, is it?
Maybe I see this all to easy.

[Al Weyman]

We had a similar thing in Post Historics with the CTCRC with guys being asked to remove Group 1 spoilers from Mk 1 Capris etc. My personal take on it should be if its a replica or genuine manufacturer part then it should be allowed but thats what was written in to the rules in ModProds, if its not within these rules then the thing to do would have been to lobby for the change at the end of last season, all a bit late now. By the way as far as I know those guys that did have to remove their spoilers never actually asked for a regulation change at the end of the season which I find odd but is'nt that racers for you, all a bit too lathargic IMHO when it comes to putting in some input at the right time then moan about it all season.

[ScoopJumps]

Oooo its like Alfa Romeo in BTCC back in 1994 all over again

[Copperbottom]

Originally Posted by chezza

Just to chuck my 2 pence worth in.

Rules is rules. It is up to you to run with a car that complies to those rules. If you don't you run the risk of being picked up and having your car reclassified...simple as that.

Also this is down to the eligibility scrutineer to enforce and nobody else...and as a judge of fact what he says goes.

I totally agree The rules are there for a reason,which is generally for the good of the series,remember the commitee that sets the rules (other than the in blue book)give their time foc.
A public forum is NOT the place to sort rules and rule changes out!

[Alan Cherry]

mmm
rules5.6.1H
Classes B-E rear spoiler height may not be higher than 50% of the height of the rear window,
unless the spoiler is homologated to fit the make and model of car by the original cars
manufacturer.
Don't know what the Seat spoilers are like, or fitted by whom - but it doesn't seem that confusing. However, as the series gets more competitive, it seems the rules will be coming under closer scrutiny. As stated by someone earlier, the rules are now approved by the MSA and set for this year, the most that anyone can hope for this year is clarification.
Suggestion for a way forward :- Instead of negative comments on an open forum, would it be possible/desirable to hold a series (perhaps every 3rd or 4th race) of post race forums ( drivers and officials only ) to discuss concerns, suggestions, requests for clarification etc etc - I believe this would prevent any problems festering, and possibly assist the rule writers if any changes/amendments are required for future series -
You may think the idea is rubbish, but I have no axe to grind - I'm only running in Tin Tops this year, but will probably come back to the DMN when the Astra is up and running again.


Alan