[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[ApexTurtle]

Who cares what John Dagys thinks? The guy's been an obvious ventriloquist for IMSA for years now.

Edit: and having read the piece makes clear he doesn't even know what he's talking about, suggesting Toyota would in any way be interested in DPi as is

[chernaudi]

DPI--as is--IMO isn't a very good option right now. It's too BOP oriented, too spec, and doesn't allow for my opinion of what LMP1 should be. LMP1 should be cost conscious, yes, and it should be accommodating of privateers, including at least giving them a theoretical chance on paper of being able to stand toe to toe with factory teams.

IMO, teams should be allowed to build or buy any car they want as long as it suits the technical regs. Development should be encouraged, but at a restrained level (one of the reasons why last gen LMP1 budgets ballooned was development was left so wide open. Not just for hybrid systems, but also aero and chassis). Hybrid systems and different engine options should be allowed to be explored, but should be balanced to roughly similar performance levels whilst encouraging variety and allowing teams to play off strengths and weaknesses.

Now, back on point with DPI. As is, I don't see it as the best option. However, if DPI 2.0 is as rumored (allowing more open design of cars, allowing a hybrid option, etc) comes true, maybe that will be a viable option for the ACO and IMSA.

IMO, the ACO/FIA and IMSA do need a shared platform for their classes. They sort of have that with GTLM/GTE-Pro (though IMSA and the ACO have independent BOP that's slightly different) and LMP2 (though LMP2 is just about dead in IMSA right now due to the popularity of DPI). Do I think that the WEC and IMSA need some independence from each other as far as detailed tech regs? Yes. What does work for one championship might not always work for another. But the basic package should IMO be the same.

So what if we have to wave bye-bye to the big, powerful hybrid systems? Sadly, not every team or car maker wants to run an insanely powerful hybrid system, or even a hybrid at all. IMO, there's been too much emphasis on hybrid being used as a push to pass/"go faster" button on LMP1 cars. That's not the reason why 99% of people who buy hybrid road cars buy them.

And so what if we also might have to wave bye-bye to stuff like fuel flow meters being used to control speeds or as an EOT/BOP measure? Especially with how EOT/BOP is in LMP1 right now with the privateer teams being allowed unlimited fuel flow per lap, I have to ask the question, why not just use air restrictors? DPI uses them, LMP2 still uses them, GTE still uses them. As with how they're being used now, I just don't see what a $2000 fuel flow meter does that a $5 piece of aluminum can't.

And so what if the succeeding cars aren't quite as fast as the current cars. I doubt that most fans would care too much if LMP1s get slowed by a few seconds a lap around Le Mans. As long as the ACO doesn't drop it to 3:30 (which would have a massive knock on effect on the other classes to retain lap time separation), I don't have a major issue with the cars getting slowed by like maybe 5 seconds a lap, which can be easily amended to LMP2 and GTE cars.

In the end, the ACO have been over complicating things for quite a while now. And when it came back to bite them, they're now in panic mode. They've just been throwing the proverbial crap at the proverbial wall and seeing what sticks. And now time's running out. They're risking PO-ing the only remaining true OEM they have left in LMP1, not getting any notable ones in, and just having the whole thing implode. The seeds for this were planted years ago. And it's the instant gratification bug that reared it's ugly head then, and it's rearing it's ugly head now.

And now with time running out, the ACO might have to adopt something that'll leave a lot of people unsatisfied. As fans, we just have to hope that they don't screw things up too badly, because I can see the potential for that to happen.

[ApexTurtle]

Forgive me, but as soon as I saw your post I scanned for the words 'air restrictor' and I wasn't disappointed

[andrewn7]

Well, I think Dagys has it spot on. It might not be a perfect solution, but if it kills off the hypercar junk then it can only be a positive thing.

At its worst it buys the ACO some thinking time, time that is in short supply right now.

[TF110]

I'd rather see hypercar than dpi's. As long as they look like these-





I'd take those over DPi's anyday. Just a little more modern and maybe some hybrid tech to please the greeny auto makers.

[ApexTurtle]

Originally Posted by andrewn7

Well, I think Dagys has it spot on. It might not be a perfect solution, but if it kills off the hypercar junk then it can only be a positive thing.

At its worst it buys the ACO some thinking time, time that is in short supply right now.

Except for the fact that absolutely nobody is interested in DPi at Le Mans. Toyota will leave and all the other manufacturers the ACO are speaking to now have expressed zero interest. The American arms of the brands currently in DPi also don't want to spend more just to attend Le Mans. And what about the privateers? Their cars will have to be severely pegged back to the point they might as well just get an LMP2 car and beef it up a bit. Or more likely leave, because they're interested in building cars. That's why they're in LMP1. So in the end it's not a solution to anything, not even short term.

[chernaudi]

LMP1 and LMP2/DPI do share chassis regs. DPIs and LMP2s are allowed to be 4750mm long vs 4650 for LMP1, which is from a chassis/body stand point the biggest difference. All Rebellion or SMP would in theory have to do to make their cars into DPI compliant cars (at least if mandating LMP2 specific chassis be used wasn't a thing) is get rid of the fuel flow meters, adopt air restrictors, ballast their cars up to 930kg and use a stock block engine.

That's probably not a complete answer to what they'd need to do, but that a hypothetical minimum/starting point. Not to mention that the Rebellion R13 and the Oreca 07 do share tubs.

As I've said, the ACO might only have 2 realistic options. One, adopt their version of DPI, or just continue with the rules as they are until 2024 or they and IMSA get on the same page hopefully with DPI 2.0. Neither one is optimal IMO, but time is running out and the ACO have painted themselves into a corner.

[carbsmith]

If you were going to adopt an existing rule set from another series Class One seems vastly more likely to succeed than DPi.

[PascaLM]

Instead of GTE+ or DPi 2.0 or Hypercars, I'd rather see both of them and a balance of categories instead of a balance of performance. We could have prototypes with 900 kg and 600 hp and on the other side GT or hypercars with 1100 to 1200 kg and 650 to 700 hp with a larger fuel tank. A few adjustments in power, aero or hybrid system should be needed.
It was nearly the same kind of regulations in the late 1990's.
In this way, any manufacturer would be able to enter a car : those with hypercars (McLaren, Aston martin, Ferrari...) and those who already entered prototypes but don't have hypercar on the shelf : Toyota, Peugeot, Nissan, Cadillac, Audi...

[Maelochs]

I was going to post some endless, pointless rant but Chernaudi hit all the high points.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by PascaLM

Instead of GTE+ or DPi 2.0 or Hypercars, I'd rather see both of them and a balance of categories instead of a balance of performance. We could have prototypes with 900 kg and 600 hp and on the other side GT or hypercars with 1100 to 1200 kg and 650 to 700 hp with a larger fuel tank. A few adjustments in power, aero or hybrid system should be needed.
It was nearly the same kind of regulations in the late 1990's.
In this way, any manufacturer would be able to enter a car : those with hypercars (McLaren, Aston martin, Ferrari...) and those who already entered prototypes but don't have hypercar on the shelf : Toyota, Peugeot, Nissan, Cadillac, Audi...

Balancing different classes just doesn't work. See DP v LMP2 and hybrid v non-hybrid. The car with the most torque wins due to traffic every time.

[chernaudi]

And it shows that BOP'ing based on lap time alone doesn't work. You also have to understand how that time is achieved by different cars. And in road racing, the cars with the most torque and most straightline ability will usually win, as Akrapovic said, due to traffic management.

Unfortunately, doing things in such detail risks making something that's already often very complicated just that much more complicated.

[PascaLM]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And it shows that BOP'ing based on lap time alone doesn't work. You also have to understand how that time is achieved by different cars. And in road racing, the cars with the most torque and most straightline ability will usually win, as Akrapovic said, due to traffic management.

Unfortunately, doing things in such detail risks making something that's already often very complicated just that much more complicated.

Yes, setting rules that satisfy everyone is difficult. But it's not torque only, it's the ratio torque/weight which is more important.

[Deleted]

It worked perfectly fine with P1/GT1, P/GTP and ALMS P1/P2, but absolutely horribly with DP/P2 and DPi/P2... even considering the series was politically motivated to give the Grand-Am cars an advantage most of the time

Anyway anything's better than straight bop classes where everything is jammed together, so even bop between established classes of their own would be okay in comparison if it meant no bop between individual models

[Damian Baldi]

Yesterday I asked engineer Enrique Scalabroni on twitter, what he thought about DPi being allowed at WEC and he put it plain "the good categories don't have to allow manufacturers, WEC should survive with only private teams and make it work by theirselfs"

[Deleted]

He's not wrong

Manufacturers can come if they so please (and eventually they will come (in bursts) like they always do for LM)) but you don't have to cater to their every need and exchange authenticity and Independence for corporate money and wrestling entertainment

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Damian Baldi

Yesterday I asked engineer Enrique Scalabroni on twitter, what he thought about DPi being allowed at WEC and he put it plain "the good categories don't have to allow manufacturers, WEC should survive with only private teams and make it work by theirselfs"

I agree with that (and it's another thing that people on this forum have said). The FIA "World Championship" status is the problem because it "requires" manufacturers to make it a world championship.

My personal feeling on that is that is nonsense and nothing but arrogance and stuck-up BS. The 1995 F1 championship had 1 manufacturer team - Ferrari. And it sure as hell was a World Championship. Can maybe include McLaren because the F1 Supercar was about, but that's clutching at straws.

You should not need manufactuers to make championships. You should only need teams. And WEC actually has that. It isn't many, but they are there. Fine you're not going to be filling VIP booths at Silverstone off of Rebellion v SMP, but you will fill them at Le Mans like always.

I'm all for customer spec hybrid systems, all for keeping LMP style cars, and all for being able to run the top class without pandering to manufacturers. If we have Le Mans 2021 and it's Rebellion v SMP v Jota v ByKolles for the win, I'm a happy man.

[Deleted]

In reality none of these world championships really require anything. FIA WEC required two manufacturers for LMP1 in order to officially register as WC, but now it's just been hastily transformed into singular Teams championship with one mfg and privateers. FIA GT1 WC 2012 had zero GT1 cars, but more importantly didn't head outside Europe, even though the regulations said you had to go to at least 3... waiver from the FIA handed that.

[Damian Baldi]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I'm all for customer spec hybrid systems, all for keeping LMP style cars, and all for being able to run the top class without pandering to manufacturers. If we have Le Mans 2021 and it's Rebellion v SMP v Jota v ByKolles for the win, I'm a happy man.

Of course, that's perfect for me, just putting Toyota aside all will become a lot more interesting and dramatic. It wasn't the same with Audi-Toyota-Porsche, was very good, but you knew all the time that the private teams were not winning candidates.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Chiana

It worked perfectly fine with P1/GT1, P/GTP and ALMS P1/P2, but absolutely horribly with DP/P2 and DPi/P2... even considering the series was politically motivated to give the Grand-Am cars an advantage most of the time

All that happened in (or on the back-end of) a different corporate culture, when manufacturers still went racing simply because they were car manufacturers and racing was what car manufacturers did, at least in one form or another. Similarly, consumer brands (e.g. breweries like Warsteiner or Hasseröder or producers of body care products like Cliff or Old Spice) sponsored racing cars, because racing was cool and that was what customer brands did.

Additionally, cars were much less reliable in the 1990s, so being on the absolute pace was less important than surviving, especially at Le Mans. Oh, and then there was still Tobacco money (not in 2006/7/8, but in the 90s).

In combination, these factors made it easy for companies to justify racing programs against the bean counters. With cars being much more reliable now, and there being less sponsorship money around, racing programs for most manufacturers can only be justified if they win races; hence the need for BoP. You can even see that ALMS in its 2006-2008 heyday was a bit of a transitional stage, with the P2s getting pegged back year by year to keep Audi around and engaged.

Today, there is no such thing as a "honorable backmarker" as there was back in the 90s (think Opel in DTM before 1996 or the Nissan GT1 cars). Nowadays, you either are in with at least a shot at winning, or you have the rug pulled from underneath your little racing program in no time at all (cf. the Nissan LMP1.)

[Deleted]

Yes it goes along with what I've been saying for years now, once you introduce "everybody should be able to win" mentality, it becomes the norm and expected.

Anyway, even as late as decade ago you still had programs like Spyker Squadron in GT2 whom knew they were never going to conquer anything, yet still continued to field cars

But it is true, the Minardis of yesteryear are dying breed, because of how the system has been messed up with

[carbsmith]

Cars are only reliable because the limit isn't being pushed. The hybrids broke left and right racing each other.

[ApexTurtle]

Indeed and the biggest problem for the privateers is that they keep breaking all the time. It took Toyota until 2018 to build a bulletproof car. Reliability is certainly better overall compared to ten years ago but I think that's a good thing. Leaves more room for racing.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Cars are only reliable because the limit isn't being pushed. The hybrids broke left and right racing each other.

Yeah 2014-2017 had pretty remarkable reliability woes for the hybrids

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Chiana

It worked perfectly fine with P1/GT1, P/GTP and ALMS P1/P2, but absolutely horribly with DP/P2 and DPi/P2... even considering the series was politically motivated to give the Grand-Am cars an advantage most of the time

Anyway anything's better than straight bop classes where everything is jammed together, so even bop between established classes of their own would be okay in comparison if it meant no bop between individual models

I wouldn't say it (setting BOP by lap time alone) "worked perfectly fine." I guess it matters what one's definition of "perfectly fine" might be.

if the idea was to have two ways to achieve the same pace (bigger, heavier, more powerful vs. lighter and nimbler and less powerful) it never really worked---Penske's LMP2 Porsches only won a couple times because nothing beat the torque and power advantages of the Audis. Check the ALMS results .... how many times did P2s win overall?

So long as one class was always supposed to be slower, sure, it can work---but when two separate classes are supposed to perform identically, it never does. Even in BOP'd series like Blancpain, there are always going to be cars which do better on certain tracks---and any time a car with more torque can get in front of a car with more cornering speed, the torque car can stay there because the trailing car can't maintain momentum when the lead car brakes, and can't match the torquier car out of the corner.

The #10 WRT DP held off the Mazda for hours at PLM several years ago for exactly that reason--the Mazda was quicker and faster, but the heavier Wayne Taylor car had to brake early, so the driver could block the middle of the track, then use its V8 torque to open a gap on corner exit. By the time the Mazda caught up again, the DP would be braking for the next corner.

Nothing to do with politics---the Mazda was faster, and could lap faster, but couldn't pass the car with more weight, less aero, and a lot more low-end torque.

You could probably take 100 bhp out of the Toyota TS 050 motor and the car would still be unbeatable because of the hybrid boost out of the corners.

Having a mixed top class---in effect more than one top class, mixed together---really isn't workable. Everything depends on the vagaries of BOP, and no matter how the scale is set, there is always going to be a lot of ugly uncertainty.

Look at all the GT classes---brand loyalty is all that keeps the class meaningful, because the performance ranges are obliterated by ballast and restrictors. How else could a Ferrari, and Lamborghini, and a Bentley be competitive? So each marque has fans .... but who wins or loses is really a bagatelle. Who got the latest breaks?

I don't think the same would work with a P1 class---Unless there was heavy brand loyalty (i.e. total manufacturer commitment.) People might get excited about Porsche versus Toyota or Audi vs Peugeot .... but no one gives two craps about Oreca versus Dallara. So fans might watch the joke of Audi thrashing Toyota when Toyota was hastily recruited to replace Peugeot .... but how many fans are even vaguely interested in watching Toyota trounce Rebellion?

The only fair way to set the parameters is simply to set the parameters and let the teams build the best they can. Have whatever factors built into the rules---a naturally aspirated versus forced induction displacement maximum ratio, an added weight penalty for hybrid, whatever .... but once the rules are written, leave them. Build the best car you can and bring it to the track.

Of course, if FIA can sign up some major manufacturers, then everything goes out the window and it all comes down to politics .... but if the top class is going to be actual race cars, BOP won't be needed and shouldn't be used.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I'm all for customer spec hybrid systems, all for keeping LMP style cars, and all for being able to run the top class without pandering to manufacturers. If we have Le Mans 2021 and it's Rebellion v SMP v Jota v ByKolles for the win, I'm a happy man.