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23 Mar 2019, 13:06 (Ref:3892945) | #701 | |||
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End the end I think you have a good question and I don't have the answer. I suspect someone has crunched the numbers and feel that it will be a cost reduction for the teams in the end. Probably on the design side of things. Quote:
Ha! I will try to shut up about this. It really is off topic for this thread at this point. Richard |
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23 Mar 2019, 15:45 (Ref:3892954) | #702 | ||
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i think the logic for spec parts in F1 isnt necessarily about whether or not its cheaper to build a straight forward part in house, rather its that F1 teams cannot be trusted to not start a spending war over things that are thought to be relatively simple.
after all, this is F1! anyways, i would have a problem if Williams got the contract though...i almost hate to say it out loud, but to introduce a spec part built by the worst team on the grid doesn't sound like something i would want to watch. |
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23 Mar 2019, 15:55 (Ref:3892955) | #703 | ||
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You wouldn't believe it, would you. Like getting a French company to make British passports.....
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280 days...... |
23 Mar 2019, 16:32 (Ref:3892961) | #704 | ||
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23 Mar 2019, 17:22 (Ref:3892967) | #705 | |
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Not necessarily. One company supplying all the teams could probably do it cheaper than several companies supplying a couple each. All depends on how many there are and if there are any economy of scales with similar technologies in other series.
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24 Mar 2019, 04:36 (Ref:3893011) | #706 | ||
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If you want a good value part, open source the design to anyone that wants to manufacture it. |
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24 Mar 2019, 15:30 (Ref:3893076) | #707 | |||
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24 Mar 2019, 20:51 (Ref:3893112) | #708 | ||
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I get the unsaid point of competition could potentially drive down the costs. But this part has a small customer base. It may not be economical for multiple suppliers to try to fight for a limited number of customers. Customers may gravitate to one supplier anyhow leaving one or more out in the cold. Probably part of the attraction of submitting a bid is in knowing you have a predictable income stream as you’re the sole supplier. At a fixed cost of course. But I believe there is precedence for multiple suppliers of homologated parts. It’s been a long time since I looked, but I believe there is more than one supplier of the ultrasonic fuel flow meter that is FIA homologated and used by F1, WEC and maybe elsewhere. But that part is small, has well defined and specific performance parameters and that might be harder to replicate in the scenario of the gearbox cassette. Richard |
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25 Mar 2019, 12:03 (Ref:3893223) | #709 | |
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25 Mar 2019, 12:11 (Ref:3893226) | #710 | ||
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Seems that you have come round to believing the gear cassettes/internals are in fact complex parts that are difficult to manufacture, and a performance differentiator? |
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25 Mar 2019, 13:20 (Ref:3893249) | #711 | ||
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In your post #706, you said: "I can put my hand on my heart and tell you that I have never seen a spec part in any racing series that represented good value for money, every last one of them has been a ripoff.
If you want a good value part, open source the design to anyone that wants to manufacture it. " So I mentioned Xtrac/IndyCar, as an example of a spec part, the gearbox, that's been good value for money in a racing series. Otherwise I don't think they would have used them for nearly 20 years. |
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26 Mar 2019, 00:23 (Ref:3893386) | #712 | ||
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Perhaps the gearbox prices were kept reasonable by the threat of competition from the likes of Hewland and Holinger? Limiting the development of gearboxes in a formula where a 2 engine supply costs $40 million a year does however just seem to be a bad joke. |
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26 Mar 2019, 01:34 (Ref:3893393) | #713 | |
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No one manufacturer is making enough F1 gearboxes to make it particularly cheap to make a few more, cut the supply in half and you get teams likely paying the same or more for the product as the R&D costs are doubled per unit. As soon as MB picks a unit and wins the WCC, the other guys are screwed and we're back to one builder. Save the time and have one build from the start.
And to bring it back to topic, hopefully that bid could get Williams the cash needed to develop their design. But I don't think the internals would be that big a contract. Aren't they on pace to only use a couple transmissions a season soon anyway? The contract would be to build what 50 units a year, plus spares as needed? Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk |
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26 Mar 2019, 12:37 (Ref:3893481) | #714 | ||
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Teams will treat everything as a performance differentiator if you allow them. Thankfully even they understand it makes no sense to manufacture 100% of the car themselves. Otherwise they would not be using off the shelf electrical connector, nuts and bolts, etc. Regarding the gearbox cassette, if every team created their own, they would all be slightly different and the designers would tell you why theirs is best. However, if examined objectively, do they have a significant impact on the cars performance vs their competitors? Probably not. I am generally not a fan of spec parts. I am mostly playing devils advocate here with respect to the thinking on why this is going to be a spec part. In the end, I can’t find flaws in their thinking “IF” this really is a money saver. I am more concerned about team survival and closing performance gaps than the purity of teams building stuff like this themselves. Richard |
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26 Mar 2019, 12:44 (Ref:3893483) | #715 | ||
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Richard |
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26 Mar 2019, 13:20 (Ref:3893491) | #716 | ||
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But this contract is for building the internals and not the complete gearbox including casing...is that right?
The xtrac gearbox is a complete using built for a spec chassis, so the question is whether there would be money in it for a currently non F1 manufacturer to design spec internals that would be able to fit inside possibly upto 12 but likely 4 or 5 different gearbox casings? Or putting it another way, teams having to buy the spec internals but then having to design their own gearbox casing and surround to go with it. Would that really be a cost reduction? |
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26 Mar 2019, 20:42 (Ref:3893552) | #717 | |||
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26 Mar 2019, 21:55 (Ref:3893561) | #718 | ||
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Richard |
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27 Mar 2019, 06:12 (Ref:3893611) | #719 | ||
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27 Mar 2019, 08:54 (Ref:3893646) | #720 | |
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27 Mar 2019, 10:51 (Ref:3893679) | #721 | ||
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i’m sure we can all agree williams need to look at themselves, their structure and whether a lot of folk need to be shown the door, but at this point there’s far too much of “claire williams sneezed, so there’s something wrong with williams” hysteria. i’m sure we all work in rubbish working environments from time to time, but if you let it affect how you do your job you’re probably not as good as you think you are. |
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27 Mar 2019, 11:18 (Ref:3893691) | #722 | ||
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Personally, Williams would be best focusing on getting up the grid rather than tendering for a gearbox contract. Stick to the knitting as my grandmother would have said. |
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27 Mar 2019, 11:31 (Ref:3893693) | #723 | |||
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I am not aware, nor do I think that I have read anywhere, that Williams have or are considering tendering for the contract. It was all a hypothetical theory that formed part of this discussion. |
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27 Mar 2019, 11:45 (Ref:3893700) | #724 | ||
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Oh, and add a technical director in there too. |
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27 Mar 2019, 11:47 (Ref:3893701) | #725 | |||
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