2013-2014 N.Z National Motorsport Classes..(Excluding NZV8 & ST please.)

[bluespur]

Jericho, at least you are asking questions rather than making ill informed, incorrect statements

Am sure that Carl can point out why flag marshals have to leave their points during truck racing.

[Swedish Brick]

That's pretty obvious. Petch has stated he would prefer to go no further than Taupo. Yes I'm aware where Taupo is. Point remains he would rather have the STs as an Auckland based champs.

But that's getting away from the topic

[socram]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

That's pretty obvious. Petch has stated he would prefer to go no further than Taupo. Yes I'm aware where Taupo is. Point remains he would rather have the STs as an Auckland based champs.

But that's getting away from the topic

Probably, but I have no problem whatever with regional series, from ST down, as travel, time and accommodation costs just ramp up the overall costs of competing and times are still tough out there.

I sometimes wonder if the lack of support for national series' is due to that expensive patch of water between N & S? Not to mention of course the horrendous problems of getting away from Auckland and the north on a Friday night.

We are a pyramid as in any sport with relatively few well heeled and/or talented people at the top, but a vast base of club drivers across all disciplines.

That vast base comprises many small series but we'd be kidding ourselves if we thought the general public was in any way interested in paying to see the racing and even enthusiasts are piccy.

[Icarus_nz]

Too many class structures
Small population and small economy
Lots of tracks running lots of events = dilution of interest for spectator.

It would be interesting to know the rate of participation in New Zealand for any sporting activity involving an engine. Interesting to then factor in skateboarding/biking/sailing etc as they are activities involving a machine of some sort

Circuit racing is a very small sub group of the bigger picture.

Come any race weekend people are out in their kart/motorcycle/jetski/boat/rallycar/speedway car/offroader/hotrodclassicvintage car etc.
Why would they pay money to watch something that mildly interests them when they can spend that money having a go at something themselves?

There is this strangely egotistical desire to race in front of a big crowd with live TV coverage, shiny trophies for all and plenty of titles to go round. Oh and get paid to turn up and have to bat off big sponsors and pretty girls with a short stick.

Firstly - does any of that crap add a jot of enjoyment to your participation?

Secondly - this dream requires money. Lots of money. AND has to be earned through determination, dedication, ability and lots o luck.

The way to improve promoted meetings is to have less and be very very selective about the mix of competiors.
When desire outstrips availible promoted meetings to run at then, and only then, will the show have half a chance of appealing to the household entertertainment spend.

Race meetings are viable to run with 80 - 90 entries as costs are covered.
Focus on the pleasure of participation and throw open the gates for free.

Put yourself in the shoes of the casual spectator and stop overselling a tired lacklustre show. People have been burnt too many times by hyping glorified invariably unreliable club cars driven poorly.

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Too many class structures
Small population and small economy

have to agree. could never understand why there had to be a new "single-make ' series every couple of years, and have a dedicated race for them, when boring class within boring class was bad enough.

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Race meetings are viable to run with 80 - 90 entries as costs are covered.
Focus on the pleasure of participation and throw open the gates for free.

Put yourself in the shoes of the casual spectator and stop overselling a tired lacklustre show. People have been burnt too many times by hyping glorified invariably unreliable club cars driven poorly.

Amen

[socram]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Race meetings are viable to run with 80 - 90 entries as costs are covered.
Focus on the pleasure of participation and throw open the gates for free.

Put yourself in the shoes of the casual spectator and stop overselling a tired lacklustre show. People have been burnt too many times by hyping glorified invariably unreliable club cars driven poorly.

Agree, other than the costs are rising all the time, particularly locally with ambulance/paramedics etc. so lift your break even to 90 - 100 (or we have to charge more!) Also disagree about the standard of driving as it is much higher than some televised classes. Just one car damaged, which, considering the weather was quite impressive.

We threw open the gates for free, but from an entry of 92, we ended up with just 80 signing on.

Most local classes this year have seen higher registrations, but fewer race entries.

[Old_Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swedish Brick
How many times on this forum have Aucklanders stated they would rather not travel? Several. Including one series founder and promoter.

If you are referring to me, then may I point out that yes, I would rather not travel these days, but that is my personal choice based on a variety of factors....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been quite impressed how 'clean' this thread had stayed until now.
Not interested in V8 whining. Not interested in the people that can't or won't put their available funds, time & talent into a more affordable class to enable them to be part of a 'National' series.
Please keep the snivelling comments for posts on other more deserving threads. Or is retirement another possible option?
Thanks.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Old_Bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swedish Brick
How many times on this forum have Aucklanders stated they would rather not travel? Several. Including one series founder and promoter.

If you are referring to me, then may I point out that yes, I would rather not travel these days, but that is my personal choice based on a variety of factors....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been quite impressed how 'clean' this thread had stayed until now.
Not interested in V8 whining. Not interested in the people that can't or won't put their available funds, time & talent into a more affordable class to enable them to be part of a 'National' series.
Please keep the snivelling comments for posts on other more deserving threads. Or is retirement another possible option?
Thanks.

I didn't notice any snivelling until you just posted... As your name implies, perhaps it is time for retirement.

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by Old_Bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swedish Brick
How many times on this forum have Aucklanders stated they would rather not travel? Several. Including one series founder and promoter.

If you are referring to me, then may I point out that yes, I would rather not travel these days, but that is my personal choice based on a variety of factors....

i believe he is refferring to the founder/promotor of the bestest everer v8 touring car series in NZ that is struggling to get a decent gate anywhere else in the country , so will base his cars at Pukekohe, now that Ateed has helped fund the improvements .

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by smokin'joe

i believe he is refferring to the founder/promotor of the bestest everer v8 touring car series in NZ that is struggling to get a decent gate anywhere else in the country , so will base his cars at Pukekohe, now that Ateed has helped fund the improvements .

You're not allowed to talk about V8's in this thread.

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

You're not allowed to talk about V8's in this thread.

why can't we talk about VB's?

[promax]

Originally Posted by FAS33

why can't we talk about VB's?

cause it's **** beer!

[bluespur]

And particularly any negative V8ST ones

[Goat Boy]

No, just not at all. Ask Bob.

[Goat Boy]

Or is it whiskey??!

[Icarus_nz]

Looking back at Old Bob's OP, the question he was posing seemed to be what should the 'feeder classes' to the big game look like?

It is a really important function of (control) class racing to enable drivers to develop their skills and put the responsibility for performance (to seriously over-simplify things) squarely in the cockpit

As many have pointed out however this focus often comes at the expense of popularity from interested spectators.

The 'entertainment classes', and they are legion, lack the level of competitiveness to develop drivers to the recquisit level.

They are popular, they offer good entertainment and plenty of opportunities exist to enjoy these classes.
If motorsport is solely about entertainment then it is all rather easy. I still believe the market is oversaturated with sub standard offerings.
The reason we cant afford to let the market self correct is that competitors will become disallusioned go fishing or whatever.

The governing body needs to grow some balls and provide (as it used to) a clear pathway. The progression of classes is there but it is a hard sell - particulary when there is a profit imperative. The entry level to championship level is usually single make saloons. Stability is required - not allowing deep pockets buy their slot as flavour of the month.

The people whinging about control classes have a (tenuous) point but I believe have no conception of how costs can run away in unrestrained competition. It isn't the money that is really the issue, its the willpower to spend it.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Looking back at Old Bob's OP, the question he was posing seemed to be what should the 'feeder classes' to the big game look like?

It is a really important function of (control) class racing to enable drivers to develop their skills and put the responsibility for performance (to seriously over-simplify things) squarely in the cockpit

As many have pointed out however this focus often comes at the expense of popularity from interested spectators.

The 'entertainment classes', and they are legion, lack the level of competitiveness to develop drivers to the recquisit level.

They are popular, they offer good entertainment and plenty of opportunities exist to enjoy these classes.
If motorsport is solely about entertainment then it is all rather easy. I still believe the market is oversaturated with sub standard offerings.
The reason we cant afford to let the market self correct is that competitors will become disallusioned go fishing or whatever.

The governing body needs to grow some balls and provide (as it used to) a clear pathway. The progression of classes is there but it is a hard sell - particulary when there is a profit imperative. The entry level to championship level is usually single make saloons. Stability is required - not allowing deep pockets buy their slot as flavour of the month.

The people whinging about control classes have a (tenuous) point but I believe have no conception of how costs can run away in unrestrained competition. It isn't the money that is really the issue, its the willpower to spend it.

Excellent post, support class's will always struggle in lean times, what we really need in New Zealand is an affordable fast controlled class that does not date, Aussie race cars, now owned by the Quinn's, is the only class of fast affordable real race cars that will not date, because the complete body can now can be changed in less than an hour.

It would also allow genuine inter Australian versus New Zealand races to support big event's such as the V8SC at Puke etc. The introduction of the Toyota 86 is yet another nail in the coffin of support class racing in this country, least in my opinion.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

The introduction of the Toyota 86 is yet another nail in the coffin of support class racing in this country, least in my opinion.

BMW Mini - $55k. Suzuki Swift $35k.
Toyota 86 - $70k WTF!

In terms of longevity and running costs a purpose built chassis is always going to be a better deal than mongreled road cars.
And, not necessarily more expensive.

Essential DNA? Pah! Abitary expense more like.

[Swedish Brick]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

BMW Mini - $55k. Suzuki Swift $35k.
Toyota 86 - $70k WTF!

In terms of longevity and running costs a purpose built chassis is always going to be a better deal than mongreled road cars.
And, not necessarily more expensive.

Essential DNA? Pah! Abitary expense more like.

Is the $70k for the 86 the car only? Or do you get extra?

[socram]

The point that seems to have been overlooked - good though some of these posts are, is establishing the reason why anyone races at all?

The reasons for the young and ambitious racing are totally different from old farts driving old cars, or owners who just enjoy being able to exceeed 100kph an hour legally.

I wonder just how many of the NZ licence holders are potential stars, or potential winners on the international stage as opposed to the hobby drivers?

I'm a hobby driver and most of the people I come into contact with are also hobby drivers, even though we might have Kenny Smith, Clark Proctor and a couple of others wanting to really race F5000's, (or their chosen mounts), the classic and historic fraternity, probaby the strongest sector in NZ motorsport, is generally about the cars, not the drivers.

Sadly, keeping some of these older cars running is hitting the budgets really hard, especially as getting spares is now getting tougher.

Motorsport has always been seen as a rich man's sport and at the higher levels, it probably still is. It is to NZ's credit that there are so many cars still out there racing and so many great tracks on which to race. Have any car, can race. Brilliant. But as Icarus points out, it is a competitor sport in the main, not a paying spectator sport, so we need to emphasise all the free spectator events as well as push the higher profile paying events.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by socram

The point that seems to have been overlooked - good though some of these posts are, is establishing the reason why anyone races at all?

• Because the sensation of driving a car on the limit of grip is SUCH A RUSH!
• Because you can drive a racecar for 10 minutes and bore everybody in the pub talking about it for 2 hours afterward.
• Because you believe you can get better at it
• Because every bloke (and lets be fair, it is mostly blokes) knows he is a better driver than every other bloke expect perhaps Billy Bobby and a couple of others
• Because people who have never raced think you are a pretty cool dude being a part time race driver
• Because deep inside you know that if time, circumstances and inherited wealth had been on your side YOU would currently be a F1 driver
• Because by tinkering in your garage with some mates you can go faster thereby proving your kiwi #8 skills make you smarter than those pointy headed foreign engineer types
• Because everybody else in the pits (cheating, know nothing w**kers that they are) share your interest and you all have a lot in common
• Because it makes your 9 - 5 bearable thinking about your next outing
• Because it is an addiction.

Originally Posted by socram

The reasons for the young and ambitious racing are totally different from old farts driving old cars, or owners who just enjoy being able to exceeed 100kph an hour legally.

I wonder just how many of the NZ licence holders are potential stars, or potential winners on the international stage as opposed to the hobby drivers?

Yes, the slums of Brazil are full of future world champions.
The skills to drive a race car fast can be learnt with sufficient effective practice. But to be a potential winner etc takes a big fat vein of money.
Actually all motorsport requires money. It isn't cheap. It can be affordable.
And in truth if the biggest skill a hobby racer brings tothe track is his wallet then so be it.

Originally Posted by socram

I'm a hobby driver and most of the people I come into contact with are also hobby drivers, even though we might have Kenny Smith, Clark Proctor and a couple of others wanting to really race F5000's, (or their chosen mounts), the classic and historic fraternity, probaby the strongest sector in NZ motorsport, is generally about the cars, not the drivers.

Sadly, keeping some of these older cars running is hitting the budgets really hard, especially as getting spares is now getting tougher.

Motorsport has always been seen as a rich man's sport and at the higher levels, it probably still is. It is to NZ's credit that there are so many cars still out there racing and so many great tracks on which to race. Have any car, can race. Brilliant. But as Icarus points out, it is a competitor sport in the main, not a paying spectator sport, so we need to emphasise all the free spectator events as well as push the higher profile paying events.

For the spectators, for sure.
For me personally the car is irrelevent. The challenge of mastering the machine is all. It may not be a common point of view but we're all different :-)

[Icarus_nz]

Not necessarily directly on topic but very interesting all the same.
This is from the single seater sub forum in a post about a young driver, The curious case of Matheo Tuscher

Originally Posted by Peter Cammish

Ivan for sure talent does matter but you need the holy grail of talent and access to around 8,000,000 euros for your 5 years in junior motorsport below F1, so it is a very rarified few who have this combination. Many parents pay advisers, who see them as cash cows and suggest that certain doors can be opened , when this does not happen the whole thing falls over and the dispirited parents feel let down and leave the sport. I hope that this lad gets other opportunities , 16 is way too young to retire from any sport.

I read Autosports look at the Brit guys doing F3 euroseries it was a little sad for a long time motorsport fan like me and one with a vested interest but it does make you realise more and more were higher level sub F1 single seat motorsport is going, as there is no external sponsorship available and why should there be when you think about.

I think the golden years of of motorsport that I remember were largely fueled by tobacco sponsorships and other products which will never comeback, the sport will never produce another Mansell or Villeneuve but it will produce another Senna in due course as Senna with his enormous family wealth is in fact the model you need to succeed, talent is not the preserve of rich or disadvantaged it is I think "born in" so people will emerge and in that sense the sport still has merits even though it is very cruel.

[Goat Boy]

Yes good point - when and where are the free events? With three kids money is always tight but they are always up for entertainment, motorsport is right up there for the boys at least!

[socram]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Yes good point - when and where are the free events? With three kids money is always tight but they are always up for entertainment, motorsport is right up there for the boys at least!

TACCOC one dayer's and our own one dayer's are usually spectator free at HD. This forum doesn't really have a NZ based upcoming events section. Try The Roaring Season.

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by socram

TACCOC one dayer's and our own one dayer's are usually spectator free at HD. This forum doesn't really have a NZ based upcoming events section. Try The Roaring Season.

As a matter of principle all TACCOC meetings are spectator free.