Webber on Pizzonia

[BootsOntheSide]

The BBC reported this, and they don't tend to be easily suckered. it's quite possible that these words were drunken, under duress and are now deeply regretted by Mark, so maybe we should give him the beneift of the doubt.

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Care to provide a link or even some substance to that? Whilst not a fan per se, I've never read or heard anything negative about the man.

I accused him of blocking a few times and I still think he did but I've never thought of him in any negative way. And you know I'm very critical of any driver.

The negative comments I mentioned were not from journalists but from fans, claiming that Webber had a lot to do with Pizzo's treatment at Jag. Some have gone as far as saying that he has written into his contract, the right to veto any new teammate; and before Buttongate, he apparently exercised that veto, thus the possibility of certain teammates joining Williams were squelched. Sir Frank, I doubt, would tolerate that type of contract and as I said, take those comments with a grain of salt, as they seem to have no basis. I am among those who feel MW has much to prove to live up to some of the hype, however, this MW rant toward Pizzo has me puzzled and I think has caught more than a few people by surprise.

[BootsOntheSide]

So, according to the views Kirk is reporting, Webber can refuse a team-mate he thinks is too good, and complains vociferously when offered one who isn't good enough? I doubt it. Everything Webber has said, and all reasonable logic, suggests that he would want the best possible team-mate, so as to help the team move forwward, and to silence those (such as myself) whose view on Webber is along the lines of "he's obviously good, but wait until he gets a good team-mate with equal support before hailing him as a likely race winner".

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by Kirk

Some have gone as far as saying that he has written into his contract, the right to veto any new teammate; and before Buttongate, he apparently exercised that veto, thus the possibility of certain teammates joining Williams were squelched. Sir Frank, I doubt, would tolerate that type of contract.

Yopu obviously don't remember the Prost/Senna/Mansell wrangles during 1992 then!

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

So, according to the views Kirk is reporting, Webber can refuse a team-mate he thinks is too good, and complains vociferously when offered one who isn't good enough? I doubt it. Everything Webber has said, and all reasonable logic, suggests that he would want the best possible team-mate, so as to help the team move forwward, and to silence those (such as myself) whose view on Webber is along the lines of "he's obviously good, but wait until he gets a good team-mate with equal support before hailing him as a likely race winner".

This rant does not sound like business, it sounds quite personal to me. Maybe Mark will clarify once a new teammate is in place.

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by knowlesy

Yopu obviously don't remember the Prost/Senna/Mansell wrangles during 1992 then!

In '92, Canadian TV coverage of F1 was limited to race reruns at 12:30 Sunday night on CBC, unless of course they decided to run something else. So I admit, although I did get to see some of the races, anything other than the result was difficult to obtain ..... so please DO TELL me about Prost/Senna/Mansell.

[Wrex]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

So, according to the views Kirk is reporting, Webber can refuse a team-mate he thinks is too good, and complains vociferously when offered one who isn't good enough? I doubt it. Everything Webber has said, and all reasonable logic, suggests that he would want the best possible team-mate, so as to help the team move forwward, and to silence those (such as myself) whose view on Webber is along the lines of "he's obviously good, but wait until he gets a good team-mate with equal support before hailing him as a likely race winner".

Well said.


Mark wanted Button, no doubt about it for the 2 reasons stated. He needs a good team mate to get rid of the doubters, and even someone that personally stretches him. Button would have stretched him, no doubt about it.

Sadly we will never know the result of that one.

More importantly, the Button/Webber combo was going to be great for the team, and the 2 of them combined would have made a great car from a driver feedback perspective.

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally Posted by Kirk

In '92, Canadian TV coverage of F1 was limited to race reruns at 12:30 Sunday night on CBC, unless of course they decided to run something else. So I admit, although I did get to see some of the races, anything other than the result was difficult to obtain ..... so please DO TELL me about Prost/Senna/Mansell.

Interesting. From what we've always been told, Canada has a great heritage of loving Formula 1, and its popularity isn't dependant on the prescence of a Canadian driver competing. Does this appear to be the case?

[Kirk]

Any who told you that Boots?
I’m just being honest here. Motorsports in Canada is still way down on the food chain of sports. In fact if it weren’t for the Internet, especially great sites like this, F1 news would still to this day, be very difficult to obtain. TSN finally picked up F1 coverage in the mid 90’s but it has always been a premium channel that is not included in basic cable. And the newspapers, well, forget them. Any F1 news in there is always the vanilla version of week old news. So in Canada we remain in the dark ages when it comes to motorsports. I’d be willing to bet that most Canadians do not even know that JV is back in F1. Believe it or not. BTW, your sarcasm is unbecoming!

[mp356a]

I don't see this as out of character at all for MW. I posted a thread months ago about "who'd want him on their TEAM" and I still think that, although he is fast, he is only working for Team Webber. I do think that he is a good driver but somewhere along the line, perhaps the pressure to perform in F1, he became more concerned with crushing teammates (to look good) than in moving the performance of the car forward.
He has perfected promoting himself. When Pizzonia called him an “apple-polisher” I think this is what he meant. It must be frustrating to show up for a test and have your teammate there handing out danish and cigars.
Obvisously I do not think that he is putting the car's developement as a low priority but I really think that he is, or is trying to, morph into MS and I've some doubt that Williams will stand for it.
Unlike the red cars, Williams runs a two car team.
It would be nice if this is the bucket of cold water that Mark needs to get back in line and work towards moving the team forward.
He could really use some time with a teammate who is not only faster but a team player like Mika or Panis, IMHO.

[Glen]

This comes up now and again, and I just don't get it! Should he drive a bit slwer to make his team-mate feel better? Huh?

He has publicly viced his desire for a high-quality team-mate - in fact his saying that in a not very delicate way has resulted in this furore. I disapprove of these remarks made by him, purely on the grounds that they aren't very polite - it wouldn't surprise me if they are accurate though.

Shame the Button deal didn't work out. Maybe Heidfeld will come through.

Panis faster? Come off it.

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by Glen

He has publicly viced his desire for a high-quality team-mate - in fact his saying that in a not very delicate way has resulted in this furore. I disapprove of these remarks made by him, purely on the grounds that they aren't very polite - it wouldn't surprise me if they are accurate though.

I suppose some are questioning if what Webber states publicly are one in the same as those statements (or thoughts) that are not so public. I just wonder where these stories stem from as I have seen no proof.

Shame the Button deal didn't work out. Maybe Heidfeld will come through.

Agreed. Nick and Webber should be a close battle.

[EERO]

Then again, maybe Webber's comments were accurately reported. Consider that there is no love lost between Webber and Pizzonia and that Pizzonia is highly emotional and impetuous. Consider the timing of Webber's alleged comments; just as Heidfeld was about to test the Williams for the first time. Is it possible that Webber was trying to destabilize Pizzonia and make him less appealing to the Team?

[karimbo]

1) Stewart/Jaguar were never able to have 2 competitive cars at the same time: they fired Jan Magnussen after he had the most amazing F3 season EVER!
2) Webber should be careful at what he says: when he was having a good run at Jaguar everyone said he was a genius.. At Williams a good run is not enough, you MUST win.
3) Whoever his team mate will be, Heidfeld or Pizzonia, if he has a average performance I would suggest Mark to think of Zanardi or Frentzen... They came to Williams with an incredible reputation, 12 months later their careers were practically over....

[BootsOntheSide]

1) Although I'd essentially agree with this, Jackie was very patient with jan Magnussen, who simply enver go to grips with F1. As Jackie has described him as the best prospect since Ayrton Senna, axing him was something of a climbdown.

2) Only if the Williams car is more competitive than it has been in recent years, and Ferrari's dominance slips.

3) Frentzen still had 2 wins and severals easons more of F1 to come, and Zanardi had zero F1 prospects before Frank hired him anyway - he hadn't been linked with anyone else.

[Wrex]

Originally Posted by karimbo

1) Stewart/Jaguar were never able to have 2 competitive cars at the same time: they fired Jan Magnussen after he had the most amazing F3 season EVER!
2) Webber should be careful at what he says: when he was having a good run at Jaguar everyone said he was a genius.. At Williams a good run is not enough, you MUST win.
3) Whoever his team mate will be, Heidfeld or Pizzonia, if he has a average performance I would suggest Mark to think of Zanardi or Frentzen... They came to Williams with an incredible reputation, 12 months later their careers were practically over....

1. Dont disagree with this either, in fact I would suugest all 10 teams favour one driver over another during a season. Fact remains Pizza and Webber entered on equal terms, one flourished, one did'nt. If someone can give me a logical reason why a multy million dollar company would back the slower driver I am all ears.

2. Agree again. The occassional good performance wont cut it in a top team, he needs to be consistantly quick. That said I have'nt seen a consistant driver in a Williams for a couple of years now, and Ralf and Juan still have jobs.

3. If Mark turns in a Zinardi performance, he deserves to be shifted to the minors like Alex (who I loved btw, and nobody was more disappointed than me at his performance).

I think everyone agrees for different reasons, if Mark is still unproven in a top car (none of which is his fault) and now he has to deliver of the promise shown. If he fails, like all others before him his career will go backwards.

[BootsOntheSide]

If reecent Williams cars are anything to go by, the 2005 car will be variable in its performance, and the only way to get consistant results from an inconsistant car is to crash every race. What Mark will need to do is appear to push towards the car's limits each time, and have the better of Pizzonia by a big margin, or Heidfeld by a moderate one.

[Glen]

For the last two years, since Michelin have been competitive, Williams' main problem has been not hitting the ground running at the start of the season. They have left themselves a lot of development work to do during the course of the season and this has given rise to the inconsistencies. The cars themselves have been quite adaptable over a range of circuits though - it certainly isn't the case that they have been all straight-line speed for example.

With the team getting behind the call for restricted testing one has to assume that they feel that they are on the right track this time though - although it may yet turn-out that this limited testing thing was a load of hot air designed to spin Ferrari into an awkward PR space (McLaren and Williams would both have had no choice but to break these proposed rules had they been in place for 2003 and 2004).

[nkh]

Originally Posted by Wrex

1. Dont disagree with this either, in fact I would suugest all 10 teams favour one driver over another during a season. Fact remains Pizza and Webber entered on equal terms, one flourished, one did'nt. If someone can give me a logical reason why a multy million dollar company would back the slower driver I am all ears.

The diffirence between Webber and Pizzonia at Jaguar in the start of the season could be be explained with Pizzonias lack og race expirience (Webber himself said that testing and racing are two compleatly diffirent things), so Pizzonia started out as the slower of them and maybe he never got a chance to move forward again. Like Magnussen at Stewart

If the cars were diffirent it would be logical to make Mark's car the 'good' one, that's what all the other teams do, but (aparently) Mark is the only person who doesn't know/see that.

[BootsOntheSide]

The same thing happened at Sauber in 2001, in terms of Heidfeld being faster because he had an extra year's experience (in a difficult car, as with Mark's 2002 at Minardi), but Mercedes and McLaren's choice of Kimi ahead of him now seems like a very good one. Similarly, Jacques is rated above Damon by most, despite the results in 1996. Experience really does boost results, especially early in the season. The more experienced driver has almost had the better of things at Stewart/Jaguar, irrespective of which is more highly regarded - the situation NKH suggests is probably typical.

[Glen]

Pizzonia didn't say he was given a slower car - only that he didn't get the treatment that he wanted. Within a bigger team they probably have the time and inclination to treat their cry-baby prima donnas with kid gloves, but in the high pressure environment of a struggling team Pizza Boy just couldn't cut the mustard. I just think it is a little ungracious for Webber to spell it out - he's going to get ample chance to prove the doubters wrong soon enough.

Fine - maybe the answer is to stick Pizzonia in the car for a few races and see if he can keep up with Webber. when he can't, he can get back to testing and let Heidfeld have the drive he deserves.

[nkh]

Originally Posted by Glen

Pizzonia didn't say he was given a slower car - only that he didn't get the treatment that he wanted.

Pizzonia quote

"I think last year was probably putting too much pressure on me and after I left I found out a lot of things that I didn't know about the team and the car. I found out things that I didn't have on the car and that the other driver had. We didn't have the same treatment,” he revealed. "Basically they didn't have a lot of money, and I think they still don't, and it's a lot easier to develop one car quicker than trying to develop both at the same time. I used to get parts one or two races later, some of them I knew about but most I didn't."

[Glen]

Oh - OK. Damn - I hate being wrong.

I still don't believe him though.

[hgmonaro]

but that's still Pizzaboy making the statement... so, I don't believe him either!

So many people on this forum have a go at MW over any little thing (this case it's probably justified) eg. hasn't done anything, etc. Just what has he done to be so hated?

Where have been the comments that Pizzaboy should have kept his mouth shut and worked towards getting a race drive and proving he's a better driver. How long is he going to keep bringing this up? Maybe MWs sick of hearing about something he doesn't agree with, and he was in a lot better place to know than us. And just why hasn't Williams signed AP is he's so dam good?

[Wrex]

Originally Posted by nkh

I used to get parts one or two races later, some of them I knew about but most I didn't."

OK, giving him the benefit of the doubt for a moment, why was he between 1-2seconds a lap slower then? The Jag would have been lucky to improve its pace that much over a season, not one or 2 races.

For those jumping to his defence, answer me the following

1. Assumming everything Pizza boy said was true, would he have beaten MW is equal equipment? If no, all this is pointless anyway.

2. If there were not equal cars (they knew one was 2 seconds a lap slower than the other) surely if AP has a smaller margin than that THEY would still know he was better would'nt they?

3. Why would they be pro-Webber and Anti-Pizzonia? If they did'nt honestly believe Mark was the better package, why would they favour him?

4. Most important question here, why did Frank (who knows more about this than any forum member) sign Webber for Millions when he could grab (and still has'nt btw) Pizzonia for peanuts?

Deep down, that last question must be bothering AP as well.

Originally Posted by hgmonaro

So many people on this forum have a go at MW over any little thing (this case it's probably justified) eg. hasn't done anything, etc. Just what has he done to be so hated?

Sign of the times mate. Michael, Juan and all drivers that are potential front runners will always have their critics. In many ways, its a compliment.