Isle of Man TT

[Hazza]

Here is a terribly out of context WIKIPEDIA quote.

Hurrah Me! Hurrah Me!

Fatality rates per 100,000 participants

1. Horse racing: 128
2. Sky diving: 123
3. Hang gliding: 56
4. Mountaineering: 51
5. Scuba Diving: 11
6. Motorcycle racing: 7
7. College Football: 3
8. Boxing: 1.3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing#...s_brain_injury

[JohnnyFiama]

So whatever you do don't hang glide across the Irish sea, parachute on to the Isle of Man, ride a horse across the mountain to the start line and then race in the TT....

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Hazza

Here is a terribly out of context WIKIPEDIA quote.

Hurrah Me! Hurrah Me!

Fatality rates per 100,000 participants

1. Horse racing: 128
2. Sky diving: 123
3. Hang gliding: 56
4. Mountaineering: 51
5. Scuba Diving: 11
6. Motorcycle racing: 7
7. College Football: 3
8. Boxing: 1.3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing#...s_brain_injury

What's the fatality rates per 100,000 participants on the TT ? I bet you its worse than the worst of those. Please don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with bike racing... its motorcycle road racing [i.e. Northwest 200, Portrush, Skerries and in particular the TT] that I'm talking about.

[Taz Q2]

Fair Dinkum, it's just not cricket, pack up you're bat & ball & go home as it's now to dangerous as well, oh hang on what about croquet, some mad ole granny might start swinging the mallet around trying to knock out other ole grannys so we'll have to ban that as well it's just to dangerous.

While i'm at it ban soccer as well, to many spectators are killed due to rioting & that is a non contact sport.

As for air travel i would dearly love to know the stats on how many DC's fell out of the sky let alone 707 & 737's, we have a show on telly at the moment called air crash investigation, & there is not one week goes by where they are not investigating 200 to 300 deaths, & these are all accidents that have oocured in the last 30 years.

[Nivola]

I remember well when Kato son left this earth and must say I knew straight away after the way the marshel acted. We know bike riding as a whole is a safety risk. Mountain biking is crazier in someways then on the TT.

Is spain ever going to ban the bull run??? I dont think so. Why are they not going to ban it? Because it is a cultural thing that is part of there history and they no stop histry for a guy in a suit saying "hmmmm drugs are bad ok". (had to use that line sorry!)

Last year watching capa and sete I thought the worst but they got away with it. Lucky them but they know the risks when they throw a leg over.

I remember hearing a story of christion sarron. Before every race he thought he was never coming back!!!!!!!!! Did it stop him??? No it didnt.

See it all in the way you look at things. Is that a half full glass?

Hazza nice stats
Johnny nice post
Taz oh so true but it is accecptable cause it is a accident cause we know the risks LOL!

[Taz Q2]

Ask Joey Dunlop, or Steve Hislop, or Shaun Harris after his accident if he thinks it should still be banned, I'll bet my left gonad i know what the answer will be.

The feeling a rider gets from just having admirably completed a lap of this circuit knowing full well that death is one split second away must be unmatched & is a feeling i dearly hope to attain in the very near future.

Does anyone have an update on Shauns & the spectators condition.

[Nivola]

Shaun is in a bad way get on the forum on www.iomtt.com and read stuff there

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Taz Q2

The feeling a rider gets from just having admirably completed a lap of this circuit knowing full well that death is one split second away must be unmatched & is a feeling i dearly hope to attain in the very near future.

Does anyone have an update on Shauns & the spectators condition.

What a statement ! "I hope I get to within a split second of death and by the way, how are the unfortunate people who had that happen to them doing"

This is just not rational and not what motorsport's about. I'm checking out of this thread now. Over and out guys !

[Hazza]

Originally Posted by Taz Q2

Ask Joey Dunlop, or Steve Hislop, or Shaun Harris after his accident if he thinks it should still be banned, I'll bet my left gonad i know what the answer will be.

The feeling a rider gets from just having admirably completed a lap of this circuit knowing full well that death is one split second away must be unmatched & is a feeling i dearly hope to attain in the very near future.

Does anyone have an update on Shauns & the spectators condition.

Steve's was it shouldn't be banned, but limited to 600cc. (This was back in 1994)

[jhansen]

If the racers are willing to take the risk then that's up to them. I'm fine with that and stand amazed at their courage. I'm gutted when we have a fatality, but they are not forced at gun point to run the race.

What needs to be addressed is the safety of the spectators. Yes, they agree to come watch, but every attempt must be made to ensure their safety.

Speaking of risky races, how about the bikes going around Macau. Now that takes some balls!

[nihil]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Really ? Civilized society says that killing people is unacceptable. Those who do it go to jail.

Civilised society should also know that legislation has limits, and that liberty means allowing experienced, sane individuals to make their own decisions. I wouldn't race in the TT; I do not have the skill. There are people who do have the skill, however, and while they are happy to test themselves, we as a society should be happy that they are free to do so.

To equate the TT with murder is utterly irrational. I recommend reading On the Nature of Things by Lucretius. Or something by Epicurus:

"And even as people choose of food not merely and simply the larger portion, but the more pleasant, so the wise seek to enjoy the time which is most pleasant and not merely that which is longest."

And when you have done that, come back and tell me why death itself (let alone the potential for death) should be considered harmful to society.

[Dani Filth]

do I have to remind everybody .. "attack the post, not the poster"

skill?? .. that's rather subjective .. i could say those that lost their lives weren't skilled enough .. can I be proved wrong ?

Lucretius ?? .. Epicurus ?? . man those were the times ..

[Dutton]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Its sticking two fingers up at everything that's been done to improve safety over the years and increase the chances of a positive outcome from an accident.

For those of you who really do enjoy an event which puts the lives of its participants in such peril all I can say to you is that I cannot connect with your thinking. In 2007 society values human life greater than it did in 1907, however that's not the case in the TT and Friday's events provided a dreadfully sad reminder of the real legacy of 100 years of the event.

I'm afraid I still can't get over the factor that if people choose to do it...well, then they should be allowed to do it. It is important that measures are taken to protect the general public from it when an event is run, but the riders takes his choice.

Presumably we should abolish all rallying? That is driving rather quickly through very dangerous routes. I wouldn't like to see that go either.

[Dutton]

Aaaarrgghh!!! I forgot I was editing that above post, so when I went to post it there was a timeout...yet again a bunch of writing is lost (my fault this time, though). I will need to summon the energy to write it for the third time, but that will be later. I must remember more often to Ctr-C the text of large posts before hitting "enter".

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by nihil

Civilised society should also know that legislation has limits, and that liberty means allowing experienced, sane individuals to make their own decisions. I wouldn't race in the TT; I do not have the skill. There are people who do have the skill, however, and while they are happy to test themselves, we as a society should be happy that they are free to do so.

To equate the TT with murder is utterly irrational. I recommend reading On the Nature of Things by Lucretius. Or something by Epicurus:

"And even as people choose of food not merely and simply the larger portion, but the more pleasant, so the wise seek to enjoy the time which is most pleasant and not merely that which is longest."

And when you have done that, come back and tell me why death itself (let alone the potential for death) should be considered harmful to society.

o What do we say to the families left behind to pick up the pieces ? Kids without dads, parents of young people cut down in their prime.

o What do we say to the spectators mowed down by a bike ricocheting between concrete walls at 200+mph ?

o What do we say to the doctors and surgeons in the emergency rooms that have to 'deal with' the horrific outcomes ?

Do we tell them to read some Greek philosophy ? If these are the kinds of consequences of somebody 'testing themselves', then its a pretty bizarre thing to condone.

[Nivola]

Well there is more sadness this week with the passing of a 600cc supersports rider at mallory on the weekend. Now I know a few lines here I could use to justify the banning of circuit racing now but I wont.

Rather I would hope you all raise a glass for this champion who was doing what he loved.

My deepest feelings of sadness go out to his family in this there time of need.

[Hazza]

You can't tell me that these guys just get up and goto the IOM TT to race on a whim. (Well some do.) You can't honestly say that people don't have the right state of mind to decided for them self what is harmful to them and what is not.

It all boils down to people getting ticked off, and making it their buisness to tell other people what to think and what to do. Which is wrong, in my opinion.

[Dani Filth]

people take drugs. .smoke .. and do other activities that are harmful .. so no .. people sometimes can't decide for them self

[Hazza]

Okay, so now we're equating that the ability to decide to compete in a motor race is entirely the same thing as the descision to DO DRUGS?

[Dutton]

Well, the same decisions on risk and stuff remains.

It is just that what people consider to be an acceptable risk, and what things are worth, that varies.

To continue with the drug example, I chose to do various drugs through my younger years. There were risks present, but I made decisions based on what I thought was worth the risk (sometimes this meant not doing something, other times it meant doing it). It was totally worth it, for me, in the end, although, of course, there have been some effects (nothing particularly serious, though). There could be a nasty surprise in the future, though, undoubtedly. I accepted this risk at the time, and I still do now after the period.

It was totally worth it, overall, but I have seen plenty of people get screwed up via mismanagement of it. Then there are others, none that I have know though, who have been screwed over by irregularities and stuff.

The risk of harm, or actual harm that can/does occur, along with other such things, are all factors in decisions that make people do what they do (people just put different values on different things).

[racer69]

I still can't believe i read earlier in this thread accusing the TT of 'murdering' people!

Does that now make Mondello Park or the BSB organisers guilty of murder after last weekend? Of course not.

Originally Posted by davyboy

o What do we say to the families left behind to pick up the pieces ? Kids without dads, parents of young people cut down in their prime.

As far as riders are concerned, as pointed out many times, they know the risks, as do their families. The riders are obviously comfortable to take the risk, not only for themselves as well as for their families

Originally Posted by davyboy

o What do we say to the spectators mowed down by a bike ricocheting between concrete walls at 200+mph ?

The spectators & marshalls are obviously the unacceptable part of this tragedy, and no doubt this will be looked into

Originally Posted by davyboy

o What do we say to the doctors and surgeons in the emergency rooms that have to 'deal with' the horrific outcomes ?

You can apply that to a million things in life, not just the TT

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by racer69

I still can't believe i read earlier in this thread accusing the TT of 'murdering' people!

Does that now make Mondello Park or the BSB organisers guilty of murder after last weekend? Of course not.

I don't think anyone's accusing the TT of murdering people, certainly I'm not. Everyone [including spectators] participates at their own will. The point was whether something as dangerous as the TT should be legally allowed to continue in 2007 as society deems other dangerous things illegal.

The events in Mondello over the weekend are a dreadful tragedy and just what the bike community does not need after Friday a week ago. My deepest sympathies go out to Guy Sanders' family and his friends. It happened on a circuit, still a dangerous place, but incomparable to road racing. There has been a very small number of deaths [3 or so ?], across all motor racing disciplines, in Mondello Park since its opening in the late 1960s. I appreciate, its still 3 too many.

[nihil]

Originally Posted by davyboy

o What do we say to the families left behind to pick up the pieces ? Kids without dads, parents of young people cut down in their prime.

Are you kidding me? What do you say to a child whose mother has died of cancer? We all have to deal with death at some point in our lives. My point with the greek philosophy is that it is the quality of our lives that matters, not the nature of our death.

o What do we say to the spectators mowed down by a bike ricocheting between concrete walls at 200+mph ?

If you're the first on scene, survey the overall nature of the incident: the extent of the casualties, but also whether there's any continuing danger to yourself or others. I'm going to assume there is help on the way, so the first thing you might say to any casualties is: Can you hear me? Open your eyes. What’s your name? Squeeze my hands.

Pay attention, because answers to those questions will really help the approaching paramedics. But really, just hearing someone's voice is a positive benefit in dealing with pain or trauma, so long as its a calm voice.

o What do we say to the doctors and surgeons in the emergency rooms that have to 'deal with' the horrific outcomes ?

Believe me, I spent an entire year as a patient on a surgical ward... Surgeons especially are never more alive than when they are dealing with what you would regard as gore.

[nihil]

Originally Posted by Dani Filth

skill?? .. that's rather subjective ..

Since racing is a craft (we talk of race craft frequently), and road racing is a category within that discipline, then I would say that we have some standards against which to assess whether a rider is adequately "skilled" for the job. If he is not, then we should be asking questions about the nature of licencing for the event, not about the event itself.

Originally Posted by Dani Filth

i could say those that lost their lives weren't skilled enough .. can I be proved wrong ?

Yes, since being "skilled" is never enough to guarantee success at anything. We are, in every aspect of our lives, always subject to a multitude of influences. Some call it randomness, some don't... but that would be an entirely different philosophical conversation

[jhansen]

It's an odd time to be living when some people would prefer to take personal choice away from us. That's a slippery slope I'd rather not go down. Again, as long as the spectators are safe I'm fine with the TT continuing on for as long as it can. And judging by this year's incidents, then some more consideration needs to be given with regards to spectator safety. The riders, well it's their choice.