Can Webber cut it?

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally Posted by overflow

Some guys can really put the BOOT in....Webber has had a season that was as good as Williams provided....let's just wait to see if they get it right in 2006...if they do then some of these posts will be irrelevent...much like their authors

Personal attacks are not warranted on this forum. If Webber did as well as the car allowed, how come Nick did better for much of the season? If Webber has a great 2006, I'll acknowledge that I got it wrong, but there are far more people who over-estimated him in 2005.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by Hip Priest

But K-B, to borrow one of your own frequently-used arguments...

What makes you think you know better than Sir Frank Williams?

Nothing.

It's Frank's team, he can employ who he wants.

I can say I don't rate Webber, but I've never said he shouldn't have the drive.

I always say the 20 drivers who deserve the seats are those who've got them.

[pole2pole]

I think the jury is still out regarding Mark. When he left Jag I think he went to the right team but at the wrong time. As we all know williams was nowhere near the force this season as they have been in past seasons. I think what mark needs is for some luck to come his way and maybe we will see this in 06. Williams switching over to bridgestone rubber for 06 could be a very smart move and could provide mark with a much needed break. I think timing is everything when it comes to decisions regarding drivers careers. Take alook at montoya and ralf.....they got out of williams at the right time. Another one that springs to mind is JV hooking up with sauber. I thought that was a strange move and when you look at it now a year later he is now a BMW driver. Mark will have a new team mate next season in the form of young nico. With williams now with cosworth power and bridgestone rubber it could be that nico has made the right move and at the right time and maybe this is the team mate that mark needs to push him.

[chunterer]

For my money, Webbo is one of the leading drivers taking the fight to the top 4 ( i won't say who they are but in my view they stand head and shoulders above the rest in terms of pure ability at the moment.

I see Mark as someone who if he keeps performing could be in the frame to go back to Renault the following year either alongside Alonso or maybe Kovalainen, that's if Williams don't improive their fortunes of course!

The Nico thing is quite interesting, i think it may take him a bit of time to get truly comfortable with F1, and i certainly don't think the best driver one the GPO2 title either.

Mark should be able to deal with him ok, and then i'd like to see him step up to a top team in 2007 with or without Flavio's help, otherwise he could join the list of promising drivers who never quite got the breaks their talent deserved and fell by the wayside before they even got the opportunity to challenge for regular podiums let alone wins, despite being in F1 for several years each like Lehto, Comas, Zanardi (first time round) Bernard, Johansson, Martini, Morbidelli, Capelli etc, etc..

Yep, Mark's career is delicately poised right now i would say?

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by chunterer

The Nico [.........] and i certainly don't think the best driver one the GPO2 title either.

Not to take this off topic, but i agree with you there!

[mac]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

I'm not denying he's a good qualifier.

But the points are handed out after the race.

Well, when Heidfeld stopped racing, the points (which appears to be your arbitrary evidence for proclaiming his demise) appear to indicate they were rather close indeed - as opposed to overwhelmingly lop-sided.

So close in fact, that if the positions were reversed at Monaco (as a result of the team decision) and the Sepang incident hadn't happened (whoever was to blame), Webber would have been ahead.

Surely that is close enough to call them at least evenly matched.

Let's see in 2006 ...... the end to 2005 indicates a strong start to 2006 for Webber, irrespective of the car's performance.

[SpawnyWhippet]

Yes, but NH only competed in 2/3 of the season, so MW should have out-scored him easily. It can't be very comforting for Mark to know that he was beaten to 2nd place by a last minute selection who never even completed the season.

[lookleft]

Next year will be only the second season in a recognized team. Almost all acknowledge that the FW27 was not the sharpest nail this year and the inter team battle was close, only decided by a bit of luck on either side. Add the strong end to the season and I don't think he is under any immediate threat. There are several other drivers that have been around longer without achieving and more than Webber has.

Seems it is harder to get INTO F1 than it is to get out. The teams are the ones paying the money and looking at the data - it is clear that they don't spend millions on design, build, development, testing and racing to put some hack in the cars. Despite any personal dislike there is no evidence that Webber is either slow or unloved by the team. Williams and McLaren are probably the 2 most stable teams in terms of drivers over the past several years, can't see Williams pulling the pin before the contract is run.

[JABWOA]

NH was only a last minute selection because he only came up at the last minute. It was an inspired move by Frank to get him. NH is every bit as good as driver as MW and both are pretty darn good at driving. MW tried too hard in the opening races (to show the car had potential and not beat his teammate) and then the Williams didn't develope fast enough with the rest of the teams until towards the end. NH should do BMW proud but I hope MW does better.

[hgmonaro]

For me it all about potential... sorry Nick!

[OZ_HCR32]

NH words resonate with me, as a NH fan i was a bit disappointed that he couldnt match Webber in qualifying. I perhaps put too much weight on a drivers speed rather then the results. But i have to say Webbers pace was encouraging. Whether he ever matures enough as a driver we will have to wait and see.

NH was lucky (perhaps calculating???) with a few of his good results last year, im hoping NH hasnt made a bad move going to BMW-Sauber...but will be interesting to see if his car is quicker then the Williams. I wouldnt be surprised if NH and JV are both quicker then Williams next year, perhaps Webber will regret not accepting overtures from Mario to join the team

[Smurfer]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

NH words resonate with me, as a NH fan i was a bit disappointed that he couldnt match Webber in qualifying. I perhaps put too much weight on a drivers speed rather then the results. But i have to say Webbers pace was encouraging. Whether he ever matures enough as a driver we will have to wait and see.

NH was lucky (perhaps calculating???) with a few of his good results last year, im hoping NH hasnt made a bad move going to BMW-Sauber...but will be interesting to see if his car is quicker then the Williams. I wouldnt be surprised if NH and JV are both quicker then Williams next year, perhaps Webber will regret not accepting overtures from Mario to join the team

What do you mean be Webber having to mature? Don't necessarily disagree, just trying to understand. I believe he needs to race within himself rather than try to win at the first corner.

My prediction is that the BMW will be faster than the Williams within a very short space of time. I also don't believe that the experience that Cosworth have with v8's counts for much. With the knowledge, skill and money that the other teams have, I believe they will be faster at the first race. This is compounded by the poor aero Williams have.

I hope I am wrong with the above.

[overflow]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Personal attacks are not warranted on this forum. If Webber did as well as the car allowed, how come Nick did better for much of the season? If Webber has a great 2006, I'll acknowledge that I got it wrong, but there are far more people who over-estimated him in 2005.

Must be a guilty concience pal , who said I was refering to you....Remember " people in glass houses "....Their is a strong Anti-Australian bias in some of these forums , interestingly coming mainly from the poms .....

Anyway back to the subject matter...lets just untwist our knickers & see what developes in 2006...

[overflow]

Just a sailient point to the guys that think NR is going to blow Webber of the track , maybe he could....so does that mean that a certain R . Briscoe , on performances , as you keep quoting as your criteria for a drivers ability , would drive the pants off both of them.....awaiting your replies with interest..

[OZ_HCR32]

Originally Posted by Smurfer

What do you mean be Webber having to mature? Don't necessarily disagree, just trying to understand. I believe he needs to race within himself rather than try to win at the first corner.

It’s a tough call, by mature I think he has to stop worrying about getting that first win, and just go out and race as hard as he and the car can. There seemed to be occassions where he was pushing too hard, or driving a bit too aggressive. That said i still think that may be a little too critical of the guy.

The year would have been a shocker if it didnt have the glimpses of race winning speed. Teh fact that the highs had a few too many lows, surely its easier to temper a driver and his speed, then it is to get him to find some in the first place.

[SpawnyWhippet]

Originally Posted by overflow

There is a strong Anti-Australian bias in some of these forums, interestingly coming mainly from the poms .....

I don't think that there is. Most people here seem to be able to assess the talents of a driver without necessarily placing nationality at the top of the list. I, like a lot of others on 10 Tenths, feel that Webber has under-delivered on his early promise from Jaguar and Minardi and would still feel this way whether MW was Australian, British, German or Mongolian.

So come on people, lets discuss this rationally without bringing nationality into the equation.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by Andydickens

Yes, but NH only competed in 2/3 of the season, so MW should have out-scored him easily.

He did. Eight more points by season's end.

[ASCII Man]

Wow, that really is impressive![/sarcasm]

[BootsOntheSide]

Isn't 'pom' a nationalist insult in itself? The idea that it is only the British emmbers of this site who criticise Mark is factually false - it might look that way because a large proportion of members are British. Likewise, JV and Webber probably stir up the most passion on here as both are from Engish-speaking countries, and have some very passioante supporters from those countries who are on here.

I think Nick has a fair amount of potential - he almost won F3000 as a rookie, won it easily in his second year (in a team which didn't score a podium in the dry the next season), outpaced Alesi as a rookie at Prost, outperformed Kimi at Sauber before beating a driver Ferrari feel good enough to race for them, dragging a hopeless Jordan into lower-midfield, and now being head-hunted to lead a factory team. Webber has showed flashes of speed, but his strong races at Spa and Suzuka need to be a springboard from now on. Nick scored more points per race last season, don't forget that.

[Kicking-back]

Not rating Webber does not make one anti-Australian.

Any opinion I have of him is based on his driving and not his nationality.

And I'm sure that's the same for anyone who has criticised him.

[D.R.T.]

In keeping in line with the threads title. Webber can definately cut it in F1. Can he be a winner and WDC fighter in seasons to come ? Well no one knows, 2005 is hard to gauge as the car didnt allow either driver to compete with the best.

So I guess we just get enjoy the entertainment as Webber tries to cut it, along with 19 other drivers.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by overflow

Their is a strong Anti-Australian bias in some of these forums , interestingly coming mainly from the poms .....

On the other side of the coin, there is also alot of paranoia in some of these forums, seems that some people can't seem to take critism when it comes to a driver they support.

[Swiss]

I really don't understand how these threads get so nationalistic at times, surely we can all be grown up about these topics.

It seems that there are a lot of UK based people on here which may to the other nationalities seems as if we are picking on them but I do not believe that to be the case, its more that this is an English speaking forum which on the whole means its predominantly English speaking fans who post here, am sure that other countires have their own native speaking forums which if we posted on there we might feel a tad overwhelmed. Combine that with the likelihood that there are more F1 fans in the UK than in Australia then you have a feeling where one feels overwhelmed by the other ..

As for Mark well I think he still has to prove himself in the top echelon of drivers, he has shown himself to have some raw talent with speed and good qualifying but I personally have some doubts as to whether he currently as the right mental approach to become a consistent sucess in F1, it seems to me that he doesn't handle pressure very well and makes some rash judgement calls that other drivers would avoid. I think Heidfelds performance this season unsettled him and Rosberg could well do the same.

Personally all I want to see is drivers and cars performing to their best so the sport is close, exciting and compelling to watch ..

[mbathshah]

Have to agree with you - a lot of expectations but the talent just isn't there IMO. If you look at his racing career he has NEVER been champion in any category that he has done. Coupled with the fact that he is 30 makes it difficult for me to envision him as a race winner never mind World Champion. Interesting to see if Nico can unbalance him next year. If he doesn't could strengthen Webber's position consideranly

[Inigo Montoya]

Enough about nationalism and posting bias. Either stay on topic or we'll have to assume that the thread has run its course.