"I drive a little bit better than the rest."

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally posted by Andrew2001
Why should we "relax" and enjoy his utter domination of the sport? It's boring and frustrating.

I meant that comment for GT_R and the rest of us who recognize greatness when we see it. The rest of you can whinge and suffer all you want

[Gt_R]

Andrew..i've said it before and i'd request it once more.

You said "MS Schumacher has never won a championship by beating a GOOD team mate, and never won a championship without Barrichello's full suppport since 2000. And he never will, something which Mika did, Hill did, something which Senna did and Prost, and Piquet and many others years before then."

Show me ANY prove that Rubens had done something that MAKES THE DIFFERENCE between winning and not winning. Show me with FACTS (not silly assumptions) why that if Rubens hadn't done ANYTHING he did in the past 4 years, Michael won't have won.

It's really incredible how critics want to convince without even bothering to come up with a half decent and relevant argument.

The reason why it's boring and frustrating is because teams like Mclaren decides to screw themselves upside down for the past couple of seasons, yet not able to learn from it.

And believe me, team orders and star drivers have been in Ferrari even when Enzo's not in his grave.

To claim that RB is an inferior driver while saying how Mika (who had to contend with DC) and JV (who had an off form HHF) had good teammates is laughable. And follow RB's history if u doubt that he's inferior to Kimi/JPM.

But of course, it's easier to divert the blushes and bash another team/driver for their success rather than focus on their own driver/team's failings and find a decent excuse for it.

[fog_shadow]

GT_R,
keep hoping. let me tell you now though, those "facts" will never turn up, because they simply do not exist.

hate breeds lies, conspiracies and innuendos. it's sad really, but i'm not complaining. i actually get a kick from seeing just how frusterated some of the haters can get.

shadow

[Hazza]

I think people are angry that Williams are the good sort, and not the kind to ask Ralf to pull over (ie: France).
And in 2000 or whatever where there would be a 1-2 for McLaren in DCs favour - that would never happen in Ferrari. I think that is what people are arguing about.

But people have to realise, Michael is still the best.

GO MONTY!!! WDC 2000 and...errr.... 2000 and something!

[freud]

Originally posted by Andrew2001
Enzo would be turning in his grave.

Enzo turned for the first few years and then.. he got tired

[Gt_R]

Hazza, yes i understand the frustration..

Ferrari/MS does at times push the system beyond the limits. Not the limits set by the rules, but rather the unspoken limits of what's acceptable.

And when such incidents happen..it does make me feel disappointed.

And i won't complain if certain people dislike Ferrari and have ill-opinions of them...There are bound to be people who like and dislike a particular thing/person/etc.

What i find irritating is the simple observation that Ferrari/MS is condemned in such a manner yet other drivers/teams are made to look angels...as if only Ferrari/MS ever made mistakes. What's worse is the irregular judgement of similar incidents, dictated by MS's position.

And that is what makes those arguments/accusations completely hard to accept.

For example, people conviently over look Silverstone ('02 i believe), when Williams ran Ralf on a heavier strategy than JPM. And in the race, when JPM find himself held up by Ralf, Ralf is being ORDERED to let JPM pass (team orders), yet Ralf refused. JPM 'complained' to the media about Ralf after the race.

What happen on the forum (and many others) is funny. Ralf is being condemned as being a bad team player...criticised for ruining JPM's race and the team's result. Justifications flew in as to why Williams/JPM were right and that Ralf ought to have given way. Fair enough, i can accept that because i too think that both drivers should work as a team.

Fast forward to Nurburgring. Ferrari is condemned to even have the guts to put RB on a different strategy...which nobody questioned in that the above situation. It didn't matter that Ferrari DID NOT ORDER Rubens to give way to a lighter MS behind him. Suddenly, what happened in a couple of races is suddenly branded as a conspiracy against RB "race after race".

Of course, if RB held MS up, he would be applauded for having the balls and praised...not bearing in mind Ralf is condemned.

And this is just ONE situation of strange double standards. I've not even start on Mclaren's ability to use DC as a tyre-tester for his teammate's benefits over the years.

What happiness do the critics get from digging up all the bitter things and rant about it years after it happen? Stop acting as if team orders is only introduced by Ferrari and MS. Stop acting that F1 is a haven with all good stuffs only to be ruined by MS/Ferrari. It's a lie.

But of course, i think it's time i take the advice of some and learn how to "get a kick from seeing just how frusterated some of the haters can get"



BTT. MS is right..he's driving better than last year... Last year he had a little off in his performance...And although he didn't say he drove a little better than the best, it doesn't take a scientists to figure that for the past few seasons, NOBODY comes close to the quality displayed by MS over the same period.

[Glen]

Originally posted by Andrew2001
... Enzo would be turning in his grave.

Don't think that has any basis in historical fact! Ferrari have always had a number one driver.

Still no-one hs solved this mystery for us - how is Rubens gifting Michael wins? Exactly how? RB can't get near MS's lap times this year - so to suggest that he is pulling aside for the team leader is difficult to understand. Perhaps all you enlightened ones can explain. Or perhaps you can't.

[climb]

Sorry for joining the thread so late. Honestly I really find it difficult to understand how MS's words could be disputed.
When he says he drivers a bit better than the rest he's just too modest: he's actually better than the rest by lightyears! Of course he cannot state it loud and proud (wouldn't be nice) but the thruth is under our eyes.
Surely the level of competition is not as terrific as it was at Senna/Prost times, but so what? It's not certainly at MS' fault if his competitors (both drivers and car manufacturers) are not that good.
This is the level of competition he has to face, and he's absolutely and unquestionably far above.

[JohnSSC]

Enzo turns in his grave only when Ferrari loses. He would be loving every milisecond of Ferrari's domination right now.

Michael, Brawn, Todt do not owe "us" anything. They are part of a racing team. The purpose of a racing team is to compete in and win races. Michael and the rest at Ferrari do just that.

Their purpose is to win races, not to have some sort of ridiculous mission to provide a "sporting" chance to someone else. This is the National Dole for goodness sake. Isn't it "sporting" enough that Ferrari consistently kick the other nine teams collective butts?

Where is the criticism of McLaren? Is DC an equal or greater ability to Kimi? Wouldn't it be more "sporting" if McLaren built a competitive race car instead a mechanical engineer's version of the Taj Mahal with garage doors??

It absolutely floors me that many here act as if:

1) Team orders were invented by Ferrari.
2) Ferrari are the only ones to use them.
3) There was once some magic time in F1 when each and every team on the grid had both drivers (WDCs of Course) competing against each other in exactly identical equipment with out even the slightest hint of favoritism in the most "sporting" (pip-pip, cheerio and all that rot) manner possible.

Wake up. It never happened except by accident or except when people have mental "time warps" when they imagine a Number Two that eventually went on to win a WDC later. The reality is that none of them want "equal" - each driver out there want to be the clear number one. Prost and Senna would have happily done whatever to the other in order to insure that THEY were the number one driver (as they did by nearly killing themselves and each other trying to take each other out).

Look at the grid now: Klien is the equal of Webber, right? Pantano is the equal of Heidfeld, right? Baumgartner is the equal of, well, errr...

The point here is that you can be as bored, vexed, annoyed as you care to be but you are seeing one man's domination because he and his team are completely focused on the goal instead of building palatial facilities worthy of a Royal Tour rather than building a real race car or having two drivers open squabbling over who got the nicer canooter valves and crying about being ordered to move over or being brought in on the wrong lap (see JPM/Schumi Lite/Williams).

Somehow I get the feeling if Williams or McLaren were dominating instead of Ferrari it would be an example of the triumph of indomitable spirit, sporting intent and blah, blah, blah.

Geez - 50 years ago you lot would probably be griping about seeing Fangio win so much. No team orders there except for the time his second was ordered OUT of his car and the car was then given to Fangio for his use.

Geez.

[Wrex]

Now if you really want a giggle at some serious hypocrisy note this - Andrew2001 is a Villenueve fan.

No number 1 at BAR was there?

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by JohnSSC


Honest to God, he is the the greatest driver of both the turbo and the V-10 era,

Michael never drove in the turbo era, but he's certainly the greatest currently.

[Red]

Originally posted by JohnSSC
Michael, Brawn, Todt do not owe "us" anything.

Strongly disagree on this one. Michael, Brawn and co do not owe them anything. But they owe us lots of victories. (however they don't really like to be late with their payments)

[stefan]

I say bring back the IROC support races. All the top drivers in garishly coloured identical Porsche 911's. Then we'd really see who's best

[Inigo Montoya]

Its been a while, so I guess its time I posted this link again:
http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ftdt047.html

[NiceGuyEddie]

It´s just all too tempting to write off Schumacher´s success as being the fruits of teamtactics and Rubens functioning as a servant. Me thinks that Rubens is playing second fiddle for the mere fact he is not in Schumachers class, not because he is party to a contract that stipulates such a thing. And he isn´t. That´s not to big of a deal, because non of them are on Schumachers playingfield, but it gets a little annoying when it is used as an argument to put down Schumachers achievements. Senna gaining the title when partnered by Prost? Fine, but what does it tell us when Prost returned the favour a season later? Besides, what does Senna beating Prost and vice versa tell us about their performance in relation to Schumacher? Why would anyone demand that Schumacher lines up against an A-class teammate and still win the title, before giving him any credit? The man´s got six worldtitles, more victories than I care to find out and is cruising to his seventh title. Would it really be any different when he was partnered by Villeneuve or Montoya? Montoya has trouble beating Ralf convincingly. Why would I even imagine that he would beat Michael hands down? Villeneuve wasn´t able to put BAR on its feed. Looked mediocre against Panis and lost out to Button (credits to the latter). Why would I even imagine that he would beat Michael hands down?

It is not about Micheal gaining titles only because he has no in-house competition. A driver if his statue has no in- or out-house competition period. The only competition comes from better cars. When he got his championship-campaign on the way, he took 6 titles between 1994 and 2003. He lost out to Hill in 1996, but surely Schumacher is a better driver than Hill. Easy. He lost out to Villeneuve in 1997 but not before taking it all the way to the wire. 1997 could´ve gone either way. It certainly wasn´t decided on driver skill. In 1998 he lost out to Mika Hakkinen, again not before taking it to the wire. Hakkinen was driving brilliant on his day, but so was Schumacher. Again the title wasn´t decided on driverskill. The debate on whether or not Mika was on Michaels level is the most honest debate i.m.h.o. but still than the conclusion should be in favour of Michael, because Mika has nowhere the consistency Micheal has. In 1999 he was beaten by two broken legs and he hasn´t lost ever since.

Michael doesn´t need Rubens to take a title. He doesn´t need Irvine either. And he certainly doesn´t need Jos Verstappen, JJ Lehto or Johnny Herbert.

[Kicking-back]

Well reasoned post, Nice Guy Eddie.

I agree with most of that, though I'd give Mika a bit more credit for 1998.

But, you're right, people who bleat on about team tactics or whatever, are ignoring the ability of Michael.

There's a lot of bitterness because he wins all the time, probably.

I enjoyed watching Schumacher more when his car wasn't quite there - eg 1996/97, and seeing him drag everything out of it.

I'm less keen on seeing the best driver/best car/best package waltz away with every race.

But they've done the best jon, and credit to them for it.

[NiceGuyEddie]

The Mika/Michael-discussion is always a tricky one. Mika could be awesome, especially on a hotlap (the best in my recollection is still one from Mika, being Estoril 1993). When the circumstances were straight forward, so was Mika and there was virtually no beating him. Same could be said for Hill, allthough to a lesser extend. Yet, where Michaels superiority tends to unveil itself is when circumstances are unpredictable. And I´m not only referring to the weather. When tactical decisions have to be made and executed. And mostly, the circumstances aren´t straight forward. Were others have screwed things up, Michael is like an (almost faultless) machine in calculating risks and executing orders from the pitwall in order to realize optimal results. It´s that reliability which makes him ´a little bit better than the rest´. True, he is one of the faster drivers out there, but I don´t believe that is the factor that makes Michael onbeatable.

Besides that, if we want to look at consistency, one only needs to point out that Michael, apart from his debutseason, which was about 1/3 of a season anyway, Michael has never gone through a season without a win, and was apart from five out of thirteen seasons (including 1991 and 1999) always in contention for the title.

I mean, he could´ve stolen your kids tricycle and you´d still have to respect these sorts of achievements.

[Kicking-back]

Agreed.

I would say that Michael's stats have been SLIGHTLY flattered in recent years by the fact he's driving one of the most reliable cars the sport has ever seen.

But, again, that's down to great preparation by the team.

Hats off to them, and to Michael.

[Knowlesy]

Originally posted by Kicking-back
I enjoyed watching Schumacher more when his car wasn't quite there - eg 1996/97, and seeing him drag everything out of it.

Quite right......Michael at his most admirable and most enjoyable to watch.

Much better than his current situation. I wonder about Michael....how can he possibly enjoy wins like his Nurburgring one. There was zero competition, he was 17 seconds away after 8 laps, if Michael isn't bored by that then there's no hope for him!

Surely he wants to be in a fight......and if he doesn't get one soon, he might as well retire. Unless he seriously enjoys driving on his own of course.

Nobody would mind Michael winning every race if he had to fight for it. And that's fact. I didn't have a problem with any of his wins last year, he had to try for them. This year is different and it is not so enjoyable. It's bordering on tedium actually. Especially when television directors insist on watching him and him alone!

I appreciate that we are watching perfection in action of course.....we will never see anything so devastating again.

But even perfection loses its shine after a while.

I doubt even Ferrari fans would enjoy too many more 2004's!

[Glen]

I actually agree with all of that knowlsey - what I can't agree with is that most anti-Schumi fans blame Schumacher for it! Yea it is boring that Schumacher and the Ferrari are so good - more relevantly, it is boring that the other teams are so bad. BAR's increase in performance is the only one to match Ferrari's - if Williams, McLaren and Renault (slightly hrash, because Renault are doing a great job) had improved to a similar degree we would have the season that every racing fan wants.

To blame Michael is dumb.

[Knowlesy]

Yep, Michael can't be blamed. He's just doing his job......the others have to catch up, they are to blame.

[Gt_R]

Not to rub it in...

But you'd see perfectly what everyone of us is trying to say here.

Once we ask for hard prove/facts/evidence or even just some logical explanation to back up those anti-MS silly claims... those very bashers just quiet down and hope that they would be conviently "let go", before planning their next strike.

They can't produce anything, even if they try.

And i won't be surprised if they try to find another lame excuse to cover up for the blatant bashing instead of coming up with the goods.

I agree that MS is not above blame. Neither is Ferrari. Both are not perfect nor saints, just like everyone else. They had just done a better job than others, and mistakes along the way is normal. But please, at least make the criticism worthy to be discussed. Not the rubbish we see every few days.

It's time such sad behavoir is put to a stop.

[Knowlesy]

We all come out with some dumb things from time to time Gt_R. I've said some daft things about Michael at times, you've said some odd things about Montoya, others have siad some absolutely outrageous things! We're all guilty of it occasionally - even the mods! (a lot less admittedly).

Maybe we should all abolish the forum and just leave Adam and Wrex to have a balanced argument between themselves!

[Hazza]

I think i'll chuck in what is now one of my favorite quotes.
Eddie Irvine, Japanese Gp 1999.

"Driving with michael as a team mate is like turning up to a gp and getting hit on the head for 4 days, poor bloody rubens."

[Wrex]

Originally posted by knowlesy
Maybe we should all abolish the forum and just leave Adam and Wrex to have a balanced argument between themselves!

There would be nothing balanced about it. You just cant talk sense with that Jaguar F1-Racing hating Adam.