so who's the best of all time?

[db120176]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

I guess the same is even truer for Gentleman Jim. When has GJ ever had a bad car?

The HR31 that he won the championship was well past it's prime when he took out the ATCC in it.

You clearly has a set against Dick Johnson. It's a shame really because it undermines your positive comments about Brock

[Conrod Kieron]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

DJ is good at car setup? I thought JB was the reason why DJR was so successful?

DJ won more ch/ships than PB? Wasn't PB disqualified from the championship one year and the title awarded to DJ? In 1984, didn't PB contest some Lemans races and virtually hand DJ the title even though Brocky nearly won all the ch/ship races he contested that year? It didn't matter as PB cleaned up at Sandown and Bathurst that year!

DJR was sh!t scared in his hi-po Sierra - the look on his face was all fear... and this guy is supposed to be a professional race car driver? Sorry, there is a big difference in class between PB and DJ.

There's many drivers who believe Moffat was good but not great. I'm not saying anything new. Was he a professional with the way he went about his motorsport? Absolutely!!! But as a driver he had his flaws (I mentioned one).

By the time JB joined DJR, DJ had already won quite a few ATCC's and Bathurst and DJ had pretty much sorted the Cossie Sierra by then.

Yep, DJ won more championships than PB. I also think PB also competed in more ATCC's than DJ and certainly in more professional teams.
I don't recall PB being disqualified from the c'ship, I do remember the Texaco Sierra's being disqualified from Bathurst due to illegal wheel arch mods and PB being given the win, I also remember him breaking his own car and jumping in his team mates at Bathurst too.

I'm not sure why your harping on about this seemingly isolated Sandown incident, as someone who is old enough to have watched DJ thru his hey day, I remember him being fairly relaxed behind the wheel, so much so that he essentially pioneered talking back to the commentators.

I can only assume you, as a Holden fan don't find fault in Holden drivers such as Brock/Richo but do in the Ford drivers, making your opinion biased. Brock certainly had his faults but they havn't been raised.

Racecraft wise, hardly any difference between DJ and PB. Off the track, DJ was the Aussie working mans hero, PB came across as the all round pro - the pin up boy of ATCC, so I guess one could be forgiven for thinking the way you do...

[Trev Campbell]

Originally Posted by Conrod Kieron

Yep, DJ won more championships than PB. I also think PB also competed in more ATCC's than DJ and certainly in more professional teams.
I don't recall PB being disqualified from the c'ship, I do remember the Texaco Sierra's being disqualified from Bathurst due to illegal wheel arch mods and PB being given the win, I also remember him breaking his own car and jumping in his team mates at Bathurst too.

Kieron, Brock did basically give up the 82 and 84 ATCC's. In 82 I think he was fighting with CAMS about better heads for the Commo and got disqualified from a round or 2 IIRC and in 84 he missed 2 rounds of the ATCC to drive at Le mans.

But that is not to deride Johnson.

Anyway for me it would be

Jim Richards
Peter Brock
Allan Moffat
Dick Johnson
Pete Geoghan
Mark Skaife
Craig Lowndes
Larry Perkins
Marco Ambrose
Allan Grice

[racer69]

From memory in 1982 Brock did a sort of 'deal' with CAMS in that he agreed to be disqualified from the ATCC so long as he was not banned for a period of time (meaning he could race at Bathurst)

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by Conrod Kieron

I can only assume you, as a Holden fan don't find fault in Holden drivers such as Brock/Richo but do in the Ford drivers, making your opinion biased. Brock certainly had his faults but they havn't been raised.

Racecraft wise, hardly any difference between DJ and PB. Off the track, DJ was the Aussie working mans hero, PB came across as the all round pro - the pin up boy of ATCC, so I guess one could be forgiven for thinking the way you do...

Yep, you've obviously done ZERO research.

I guess you aren't at all biased considering your partial comments?

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by db120176

The HR31 that he won the championship was well past it's prime when he took out the ATCC in it.

You clearly has a set against Dick Johnson. It's a shame really because it undermines your positive comments about Brock

That car was good on it's tyres... just enough horsepower and clearly faster than the BMWs, not as much straight line speed as the Sierras but better around short circuits. Which is exactly where he won his races because it suited his car.

There is a clear difference in class b/w DJ and PB and I don't think you can seriously put DJ up there with the best!

[Conrod Kieron]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Yep, you've obviously done ZERO research.

I guess you aren't at all biased considering your partial comments?

and you've done your's baby?
I suspect your quite happy to accept Brockies gifted Bathurst and his commandeering of team mates cars.

I'm certainly not biased and more than happy to put Brock/JR/Skaife in a top ten, I just don't bear blinkers.

Talking of research, here's a little I did for fun -

ATCC's entered/wins

Brock 212/37 or 17.45%
Moff 100/32 32%

DJ managed a lowly 10.89%, but of course was never driving for a big buck factory effort (yep, he drove briefly for HDT)

If those figures are to be believed, looks like Brock wasn't a patch on Moff when in the car alone, despite having the best Holden equipment (2 wins were in the Cossie of course).

You still havn't quantified your statement ssbaby? repeating it doesn't make it correct

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by Conrod Kieron

and you've done your's baby?
I suspect your quite happy to accept Brockies gifted Bathurst and his commandeering of team mates cars.

I'm certainly not biased and more than happy to put Brock/JR/Skaife in a top ten, I just don't bear blinkers.

Talking of research, here's a little I did for fun -

ATCC's entered/wins

Brock 212/37 or 17.45%
Moff 100/32 32%

DJ managed a lowly 10.89%, but of course was never driving for a big buck factory effort (yep, he drove briefly for HDT)

If those figures are to be believed, looks like Brock wasn't a patch on Moff when in the car alone, despite having the best Holden equipment (2 wins were in the Cossie of course).

You still havn't quantified your statement ssbaby? repeating it doesn't make it correct

Whatever.

Your statistics only prove you can do some research if you want to. The fact that you provided those statistics in particular indicates you have your blinkers on. They are pointless stats.

Maybe you're Moffat's lovechild?

Btw, I do rate Lowndes and Ambrose highly so brand loyalty is irrelevant. I tell it as I see it irrespective of how you tell it.

[Conrod Kieron]

I ain't nobody ssbaby.

You've provide NOTHING to back your opinion, despite being asked multiple times and throw out pointless dribble like "maybe your Moffs love child", clearly because you have nothing.

Serious sunishine, your making a complete **** of yourself as others have already pointed out, either post somethinig to back your opinion or don't expect to be taken seriously...

[db120176]

Originally Posted by Conrod Kieron

Serious sunishine, your making a complete **** of yourself as others have already pointed out, either post somethinig to back your opinion or don't expect to be taken seriously...

Well put!

[Senna05]

I personally think win percentages are a load of rubbish - sorry to dour things there.

Schumacher - Won a buketload of races, arguably a gifted driver - BUT also punted Damon and Jacques, parked it in the middle of Monaco, cut off many at the start - ONE of the greats, well, the records don't lie, but his tactics will taint how this generation looks at him.

Senna - Trundled around from 84-87 in some pretty ordinary or not quite there machines, and STILL won in 92. Yes, he too punted Prost, but in direct retaliation for the prior year, and admitted to doing so. His figures aren't as impressive as Schumi's.

My point - If we were to take a snapshot of time, of let's say 5 years, there's probably drivers that would leave some of our touted "Greatest" for dead. BUT, our opinions are influenced by the other feats achieved, not simply just wins.

Also, Johnson and Brock are also made to look worse due to their competing to the late 90's, when the championship got longer. More races, more winners all around.

[Senna05]

Also - Is that 212 ROUNDS or RACES?? Brock won 37 ROUNDS, not RACES... so irrellevant.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by Conrod Kieron

I ain't nobody ssbaby.

You've provide NOTHING to back your opinion, despite being asked multiple times and throw out pointless dribble like "maybe your Moffs love child", clearly because you have nothing.

Serious sunishine, your making a complete **** of yourself as others have already pointed out, either post somethinig to back your opinion or don't expect to be taken seriously...

Maybe after gaining knowledge of championship years that Brock had supposedly 'won' only to surrender the title, should you then start to make informative comments. Otherwise, yes you are just a nobody making blanket statements.

Moffat retired early because he knew his abilities were fading. Your statistics seem to indicate as much.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by db120176

Well put!

Do you both have a comprehension problem?

I just stated the great Alan Moffat had a habit of ploughing his cars into backmarkers.

If that's not enough, why not have a quiet word with Colin Bond and ask him his thoughts on Moffat's 'no passing policy' stipulated on Bond's contract.. and every one of Moffat's teammates. If he's not more vitriolic than my attempts at diplomacy, I'll bust my left nut!

Or how about Bob Jane's disgust with Moffat's dirty driving tactics that made him do a "Tony Longhurst" on Moffat?

And who can forget Moffat's quip that "it took two cars to beat me" at Bathurst when it was Moffat, who in fact, discovered the loophole in the first instance, which relegated his subordinate drivers to spectators in the pits.

Is it any wonder Moffat had thousands voice their disapproval at him where ever he went? Yes Moffat was probably more successful than he had any right to be.

It sounds like you guys are just trying to uphold Ford's honour during a period when Brock was dominant... but you appear to either disregard or have very little knowledge of that aspect of motor racing history.

[Henry]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

It sounds like you guys are just trying to uphold Ford's honour during a period when Brock was dominant... but you appear to either disregard or have very little knowledge of that aspect of motor racing history.

With all respect, it also sounds like there's not been born the driver to hold a candle to Peter Brock, SSbaby... is that about right?

Brock isn't the only driver to have had victories evaporate because of outside circumstances or conflicting itineraries. Regardless of your seeming inexorable yearning to denigrate the achievements of both Johnson and Moffat most prominently, they both earned their victories, and the status as legends of their sport that went with them.

On any given race day, there will be but one winner, and a host of losers. You could say this of every man on anyone's list here; that he may have been a winner many times, but he spent more time watching someone else savouring the spoils of victory than actually spraying the Moet himself... and that holds true for Brock as much as anyone else, no more no less.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by Henry

With all respect, it also sounds like there's not been born the driver to hold a candle to Peter Brock, SSbaby... is that about right?

Well this thread is about the best driver ever, is it not? To answer your question, my opinion is a definite yes.

On what basis do you make your assertions about Johnson/Moffat and co not being deserving of their hero status? I don't believe I ever said that. Are you misquoting me?

If you are a peeved Ford fan looking to attack me on the basis that my alleged bias is getting in the way of objective opinion, you couldn't be further from the truth. I have seen some great Ford drivers during my time. I rate Seton and Bowe some of the best ever and I've yet to see better drivers than Lowndes and Ambrose. They too will be legends when they retire, and will, like Moffat and Johnson be deserving of their status.

Now, do I believe that Moffat/Johnson were as good as some of the above? Again, certainly not. My opinions are exactly what this thread is about. No matter if your opinion isn't aligned with mine.

[Henry]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Well this thread is about the best driver ever, is it not? To answer your question, my opinion is a definite yes.

I had that feeling

Originally Posted by SSbaby

On what basis do you make your assertions about Johnson/Moffat and co not being deserving of their hero status? I don't believe I ever said that. Are you misquoting me?

No, I don't believe I misquoted you, but perhaps drew an incorrect conclusion from your remarks. Your selection of examples from history rather eloquently made your points on your feelings regarding the respective drivers, in the same way that others select their examples to illustrate their point.

Originally Posted by SSbaby

If you are a peeved Ford fan looking to attack me on the basis that my alleged bias is getting in the way of objective opinion, you couldn't be further from the truth.

Ford fan, mmm, yes... peeved? Definitely not. Whatever we post in here is generally only an opinion, and th A topic such as "who was the best" will, however, never be an objective argument. Statistics only tell a portion of the story, and everything else is merely subjective anyway.

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Now, do I believe that Moffat/Johnson were as good as some of the above? Again, certainly not. My opinions are exactly what this thread is about. No matter if your opinion isn't aligned with mine.

EXACTLY. In a similar way that I believe differently. Great fun innit?

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by Henry

EXACTLY. In a similar way that I believe differently. Great fun innit?

Sorry if I come across as slightly arrogant, Henry. But my comments were being challenged by some folk who on one hand claim that Moffat was better than Brock based on some meaningless stats... on the other hand, if they were big Moffat fans, surely they'd know something about Brocky having to relinquish his ch/ship titles during that era? Would I be remotely right there?

It's like motor racing history went missing during those two years but was mysteriously transferred onto a stats sheet. c

[Henry]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

... on the other hand, if they were big Moffat fans, surely they'd know something about Brocky having to relinquish his ch/ship titles during that era? Would I be remotely right there?

It's like motor racing history went missing during those two years but was mysteriously transferred onto a stats sheet. c

I grew up a Dick Johnson fan through that era, and the stigma attached to the 1981 Bathurst win ("he didn't see the full race distance!"), and the 1982 and 84 ATCC wins meant that it's impossible to forget!

My take on the whole thing is that there are many drivers remembered for career-defining mental snap-shots, even if they didn't win every race they started; try Glenn Seton and Bathurst 1987 for instance (even though he admitted in later years that he might've been a bit young and impetuous that day, and never subsequently did anything remotely as spectacular again)... or, to draw a longer bow, the whole adulation surrounding the immortal Gilles Villeneuve.

I never saw him drive, and he certainly died of his impetuosity, nothing surer... but the first image I recall when his name is mentioned, is a photo I have as the desktop on my laptop, of Gilles in the Ferrari 312T5 at (IIRC) Zandvoort in 1980, taken from the apex of the corner, with the car pointed driectly at the camera, dreiver's head cocked one way, front wheels pointed the other, the bakground a blur, but the car, at a considerable angle to the project directin of travel, in sharp focus... vivo Gilles.

[Chatters]

Yet another thread turns into a Holden-Ford argument...

Is it so hard for you all to agree to disagree?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. SSbaby doesn't like Moffat, Conrod and Henry don't like SSbaby... Let's move on...

[Conrod Kieron]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Sorry if I come across as slightly arrogant, Henry. But my comments were being challenged by some folk who on one hand claim that Moffat was better than Brock based on some meaningless stats... on the other hand, if they were big Moffat fans, surely they'd know something about Brocky having to relinquish his ch/ship titles during that era? Would I be remotely right there?

It's like motor racing history went missing during those two years but was mysteriously transferred onto a stats sheet. c

and you say others had comprehension problems!!!!

You knocked both Moffat and Johnson, saying "There is a clear difference in class b/w DJ and PB and I don't think you can seriously put DJ up there with the best!" THATS what the banter was about.
I and as far an anyone else have NEVER said that Moff was better than Brock. Here's my comment -

"If those figures are to be believed, looks like Brock wasn't a patch on Moff when in the car alone, despite having the best Holden equipment (2 wins were in the Cossie of course)"

You say I posted meaningless stats, and sure stats arn't everything, Brock bought his tally down in the latter part of his career, as did DJ. DJ also drove for back marker teams until the rock, the stats don't show that DJ was a privateer up against the quasi works Brock/MHDT in the 80's.

In the end, all i'm saying is DJ and Moff deserve to be in the top ten drivers (assuming we are talking Aus tin top's) and your opinion is misguded and won't change that fact. Ask virtually anyone who the legends are and they will agree with me. Singling out this or that incident on either side is just a ****ing contest to knowhere.

Just for the record, I rate PB as higher than DJ, MS, Moff, JR etc. I don't argue that at all, but he's not THAT much better.

I'll do my fly up now

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Or how about Bob Jane's disgust with Moffat's dirty driving tactics that made him do a "Tony Longhurst" on Moffat?

..... little knowledge of that aspect of motor racing history.

In 1968 Moffat came back to Aus to drive for Bob Jane, outings included a Brabham open wheeler & a big sporty Elfin 400.

Bob must have forgiven ... 40 years on Moff Jnr to drive one of the Rod Jane 'Bob Jane T Marts' Porsches in Carerra Cup.

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Or how about Bob Jane's disgust with Moffat's dirty driving tactics that made him do a "Tony Longhurst" on Moffat?

..... little knowledge of that aspect of motor racing history.

In 1968 Moffat came back to Aus to drive for Bob Jane, outings included a Brabham open wheeler & a big sporty Elfin 400.

Bob must have forgiven ... 40 years on Moff Jnr to drive one of the Rod Jane 'Bob Jane T Marts' Porsches in Carerra Cup.

[Henry]

Originally Posted by Chatters

Yet another thread turns into a Holden-Ford argument...

Given that the category has in essence been a Ford-Holden argument for better than 35 years, your sanctimonous groaning is far from appropriate Chatters, me old. And it's a driver argument... nobody has mentioned marques at all.

Originally Posted by Chatters

Is it so hard for you all to agree to disagree?

No we all agree that we have no trouble at all disagreeing.

Originally Posted by Chatters

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Yes, an established fact, that one.

Originally Posted by Chatters

SSbaby doesn't like Moffat, Conrod and Henry don't like SSbaby... Let's move on...

No, SSbaby loves Brock, I don't love Brock, and Kieron doesn't seem to either. But that would be putting words in people's mouths I guess. In any case, SSbaby has raised a number of irrefutable truths about Brock and Moffat in support of his argument (Brock would've been in the box seats for 1982 and 1984 ATCC's if not for circumstances like illegal cars or OS agendas, and Moffat didn't mind punting the tiddlers if they didn't clear the hell out of the way in good time). Doesn't mean that 10 he's right, or 20 I agree. For that matter, nor does it mean tha 10 I'm right, or 20 he agrees with me. Don't lose too much sleep on it mate.

[SSbaby]

If the thread title read "name the 10 biggest legends in Australian motor racing history"... Both Johnson and Moffat are solid top ten candidates... maybe top 5?

However, the thread title is about (one's opinions on) who is the best. My opinions are by no means truths. Nor are they conveyed as attempts to mock the legends that are Johnson and Moffat.

To be honest, I love Johnson and Moffat as motorsport personalities. They made Australian motorsport what it is today. Perhaps nobody more than Moffat, did as much, to bring professionalism into the sport. Moffat will always be legend in my book as he will always be associated with arguably the best Australian muscle car of all time... the GTHO (yes, I don't believe Holden had anything in it's illustrious history as remotely evocative to rival it).

Having said that, I still think the above named are a class below PB, JR, JB, Seto and others I've mentioned, as far as pure skill behind the wheel.

In the scheme of things, none of my opinions really matter... but without opinions we have a boring forum.