GM to grand am

['70 Mach 1]

Originally Posted by JAG

DPs should be compared to GT2s, not LMP cars.

I see the comparison...

They both usually have a fairly high car count, and often times put on a more entertaining race than the LMPs....



Sorry - Just could not resist.

[billnchristy]

Ok, ill take your bait...how long has it been since there were 20 GT2 cars?? Let alone enough GT2 cars in the series for 6-7 of them to take the race off and still have 20?

[JAG]

You miss my point, one LMP, IMO, is worth 5 DPs, spectacle and excitment wise.

I prefer to watch 5-6 P1s than 20 DPs. Of course this does not mean 5-6 P1s is an acceptable number. I hope, and expect numbers to increase.

If ALMS grids consisted only of GT2 cars, you would need 20+ to get me even half interested, much like GA with the DP formula.

On the other hand I would have no objection to a DP type formula becomiing LMP3, and ditching GT1 & GT2.

[billnchristy]

I havent been excited by the LMPs since 01 or so. Its really not the numbers to me, its the lack of variety. When there was Audi, Panoz, Caddy, R&S, Lola (several types), and Dalara running it was so much better...

I personally cannot understand how you can be so biased, a good Formula Vee race is still a good race, it may not make your blood pump like a field of prototypes, but seeing people dicing every time they come by you at the track is good fun...no matter what the car(s).

Maybe its the whole Europe thing and you cant get up close and personal with the machines to be able to appreciate them, that is fine...its just like I cant get too much into LMES because we see a lousy 1hr recap where over half of that is practice and qual. footage...we then get to see all the wrecks and the checkered flag...not too thrilling.

I will go to Petit to see if ALMS can rekindle some flame in me...if not I will have fun because I enjoy photographing anything at speed so I cant lose!!

[JAG]

I'm not interested in the racing, I'm a car fan first and foremost.

I'm interested in the speed, technology, looks etc, which I believe applies to many sportscar fans.

Theres plenty of good racing in single seaters and touring cars. The only 'touring car' series that interests me is the DTM, again because of the machines.

I'm not going to defend the LMP grids in the ALMS, but being a car fan, and seeing whats on the horizon, always keeps me interested in the that series, even through the lean years.

[rogerracer]

God, this whining gets old.

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by billnchristy

Maybe its the whole Europe thing and you cant get up close and personal with the machines to be able to appreciate them, that is fine...its just like I cant get too much into LMES because we see a lousy 1hr recap where over half of that is practice and qual. footage...we then get to see all the wrecks and the checkered flag...not too thrilling.

Up close to the machines - do u mean on track or in the paddock? if it's on track, then there were quite a few places when I saw LMES at Silverstone where you could get extremely close to the track... (abbey, near the bridge, for instance). But generally LMES provides a great amount of fantastic racing too, so if opportunity comes to see more than the 1hr recap u mentioned, then do have a good peek - certainly there the variety in cars is brilliant!

I do agree with Jag - part of the spectacle of sportscars is the look, technology, and certainly I think the sounds too. Takes me almost half a race to get over just how much I like the cars that are taking part!

What I don't agree with Jag tho is his line of "Theres plenty of good racing in single seaters" - I think I'm yet to see this...

[billnchristy]

I meant getting close to the Grand Am series...kinda hard to do over there.

[richmini99]

What cracks me up is all this talk of "no one caring" about Grand Am? Grand Am attendence figures this season have been the best the series has ever had. TV ratings are also the the highest Grand Am has enjoyed up to this point. As much as some of you may not like it, the Rolex Series is growing. Grand Am is having far more success with their DP, GT formula than they ever did in the SRPI, SRPII, AGT, GT days. Indeed, if no cares about Grand Am now, they cared even less about the series when it tried to cater to traditionalist.

[chocmonster7]

Originally Posted by billnchristy

I meant getting close to the Grand Am series...kinda hard to do over there.

Hasn't stopped me enjoying this season.
You just have to make the best of the coverage available to you!

[Pete Fenelon]

I was very much a GA sceptic until this year. The depth and breadth of the field for this year's Daytona 24, the proportion of it that's still sticking with the series, the close racing (which can spill over into too much paint trading occasionally) and the momentum it's all acquiring make it a very appealing championship to follow.

The cars are still stumpy and a bit low-tech, but "you get used to them" ;P

As far as prototypes in the ALMS go.... the four regular P1s are fun, but.... four....? -- and there's a massive gap between the good P2s and the grid-fillers... getting some of the depth of the LMES fields to go and play with them would REALLY help.

As for single-seaters -- well, over the pond the IRL's having a (mostly) safe and sensible season and who would've thought 18 months ago that Champcar would be this healthy? -- and over here we've got excellent racing in GP2 and the Renault World Series, and the promise of A1GP and Masters.... there's loads of racing for relatively big and hairy single-seaters now; ok, it's all spec-cars, but they're good spec-cars!

F1, F3 and Formula Pushy Dad BMW just annoy me though.

[Vacarella]

Next year's Rolex 24 could see as many as fourty DP's in the field. Let's examine that. If the Rolex 24 were opened up to ACO spec cars, there is no way that 40 prototypes would show up. As a business model for both Daytona and Grand-Am, the DP cannot be beaten.

Racing is another issue. You have fans who feel very strongly about technology over close racing. When you have more fans who vote on the side of close racing, then the other arguement becomes moot.

Grand-Am is growing. If it were not, anti-DP proponents would have a much larger soapbox on which to stand. As it stands now, the arguement loses more steam with every team that announces, with every new fan that buys a ticket, and with every point that adds to TV ratings.

It would be much more smart for Grand-Am's detractors to simply be quiet and enjoy the type of sportscar competition that you obviously love. Slamming the fastest growing auto racing series in the world is kinda like taking a wiz into the wind. It may feel refresing but you'll smell bad after you do it.

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For Nino

[Dani Filth]

well . Nascar is big . but it's c*** . IMHO..
so is Grand Am . it is/will be big in US ... but never a big international following . we'll never have an European Grand Am Series ..
but i don't mind it existence . i can live with it as long as my "needs" are satisfied

[Danske]

Sportscar racing is so obviously inferior to open-wheel it's funny for fans to complain about a series not being "real sportscar racing" when sportscars aren't "real racing" in the first place. F1 is everything motorsport should be and all else is just a waste of time.
( ^- joke nevertheless attempting to illustrate a serious point. )

All joking aside, F1 is the worst thing to ever happen to motorsports and it should DIE DIE DIE! (Oops, I lied.)

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Vacarella

Next year's Rolex 24 could see as many as fourty DP's in the field. Let's examine that. If the Rolex 24 were opened up to ACO spec cars, there is no way that 40 prototypes would show up.
For Nino

Thats the problem, DPs are protoypes in name only, thats were it stops. They are the equivalent of a GT2 car.

Its clear that the DP classes growth is slowing, as more professional teams begin to impose themselves on the series, driving away some amateurs.

Its only to be expected, we've seen the same in BPR and FIA GT.

GA will grow further, on and off the track, but lets face it, with the huge grids and quality teams and drivers, if they cannot draw in the fans now, when are they?

Lets not forget the ALMS is at a low point, so the time to strike a blow was in 2004/5.

I see no difference between GA and Trans-Am, they are identical in my opinion.

The ONLY differecne is that GA wants to become the No.1 (only?) sportscar series in the US.

Therefore I wish to see GA dissapear of the face of the earth.

Now, if they can prosper side by side, which we will learn in 2006, fine, I'll enjoy both series.

[Vacarella]

The intepretation that DP are not prototypes are just that, and interpetation. These cars are more advanced in technology than the Porsche 956 or 962. Not even afficianados like JAG can say that those cars were not prototypes.

The point of contention that Jag works with but does not effectvely convince is this: The Daytona Prototype is a type of prototype made to strict engineering confines. Is is just a much a prototype as the R&S MK IV, the car that Grand-Am used as a template for its contruction. To say that the DP is not a proto is to also say that the blueprint that inspired it was also not a prototype. This practice should be stopped.

Grand-American's growth can be directly attributed to the fact that the DP is not a cost prohibitive vehicle. In this day and age, the "unlimited" prototype can only be produced, raced and maintained for much more money. American privateers are not interested in satisfying the wants of a few fans in this country who outcry for technology they cannot afford. With all due respect, they really don't care about what the fans want. They are in the sport because they want to race.

Grand-Am's philophophy is build a solid series, one that can be counted on to be there for years. Eventually, sportscar will make the same mistakes that they always do but we in the US will have a consistant product that will not be affected by the FIA or ACO. The challenge for survival rests squarely on the shoulders of the European faction and their American supporters, ie IMSA. Grand-Am is an American series under American ownership/control with an American focus. The FIA/ACO is a faction under European control with a focus that includes European focus. Support from Europe, and acceptance from European fans are not relevent to Grand-Am or their fans. If Jag and any other European fan is under the impression that they the fan, or that ACO rulesmaking has any bearing on the future of Grand-Am, they are most mistaken. This is why their outcries against Grand-Am baffle me. It has absolutely no bearing on the future of Grand-Am.

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For Nino

[LouisTheShark]

There is a lot of hope from fans of 40 DPs next year for the 24 hour race but from what I hear, that number is unlikely. I believe Grand Am is expecting low 30s. There are some teams racing this year that will not be around next year, but they will be replaced by new teams. Overall there will be growth in DP, but it won't be the same growth rate as we saw from 2004 to 2005.

I think there will be more growth in the GT class for 2006.

[Vacarella]

By the way. If we were to go by the strict interpretation of the word "prototype," no car currently racing in any class would qualify for it. Rules in every style of organizational racing dictate that cars conform to standard height, weight, width, engine specifications, etc. The term is outdated. P1 and P2 cars under the new ACO/FIA standards look more and more alike. The freedom to be radical even under the ACO/FIA standard is harder to do now than it ever has been.

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For Nino

[richmini99]

Well, thankfully Grand Am has a long-term plan for the future that they are committed to. Grids are up, attendance is up, and TV ratings are up. If some out there think GA is failing so be it. I’m pretty sure all of those numbers will increase next year as well. It’s funny how detractors of the series never talk about no one being at Grand Am events when there are great crowds at Daytona, Mid-Ohio, and Barber.
As far as there ever being DPs in Europe; I don’t think many of us GA fans in N. America are really concerned about that. For that matter we could also care less what the definition of a true prototype is, what the panicle of motorsport engineering is, which formula of car is faster, or what the ROI/ROR for sponsors is. It’s all about close and exciting racing. THAT is what is attracting talented new teams and drivers to the Rolex Series from other sporstcar and openwheel series. I don’t see that trend stopping anytime soon.

Growth slowing in DP. You know, how many cars is enough?! 30 in one class is fine with me. GT will see the type of growth in 06' that DP enjoyed 05'. The Rolex Series is going to have VERY DEEP fields in both classes next year.

[BobN]

Originally Posted by LouisTheShark

There are some teams racing this year that will not be around next year, but they will be replaced by new teams.

Louis, what teams might be leaving? Why would ANYBODY leave the fastest growing, most stable, most cost effective, most competitve racing class on the planet?

[TheNewBob]

Cheap prototypes - in Europe that means LMP2 or a national series like Britsports. Probs nothing like anything to do with DP's, but I wouldn't want to see DP's racing in Europe - if we want something like that over here I'm sure they'd simply create LMP3.

I think ALMS worry is that it's spec'd to what Europe tends to go for - where as increasing numbers of US fans may prefer to see many DP's instead of the variety that Le Mans offers (even with the small grids). It's a question of how many US fans still wish to see European style racing - but I think queries like that will be satisfied by the ALMS in the next year or two because it too will grow, particularly with Audi, Porsche and Peugeot all having LMP projects, and Prodrive n Aston's insistance on having their cars in GT1 next year in the USA.

I'd like to see both series healthily continuing side by side. I don't take much interest in Grand Am, but I'm all for variety and letting people have choice.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Vacarella

The intepretation that DP are not prototypes are just that, and interpetation.

Prototype is a bit of a new term anyway isn't it? Sportsracer was a dominant term for many years. If we are talking about a closed wheel racing car, that isn't built based upon a road car as a Prototype, then it fits. Same with a C Sports then really.

These cars are more advanced in technology than the Porsche 956 or 962. Not even afficianados like JAG can say that those cars were not prototypes.

The point of contention that Jag works with but does not effectvely convince is this: The Daytona Prototype is a type of prototype made to strict engineering confines. Is is just a much a prototype as the R&S MK IV, the car that Grand-Am used as a template for its contruction. To say that the DP is not a proto is to also say that the blueprint that inspired it was also not a prototype. This practice should be stopped.

I understand what you are suggesting with the technology arguement, though I believe it to be false. Yes, the DP's have technology that equals many cars of the 80's. To many the term Prototype reflects (or should) the usage of today's highest levels of technology. While the DP's certainly have 80's tech, I believe it would be inaccurate to suggest they are leading tech today. The Porsche 956 was a technological car for its day, as should proper prototypes be today.

Grand-American's growth can be directly attributed to the fact that the DP is not a cost prohibitive vehicle. In this day and age, the "unlimited" prototype can only be produced, raced and maintained for much more money. American privateers are not interested in satisfying the wants of a few fans in this country who outcry for technology they cannot afford. With all due respect, they really don't care about what the fans want. They are in the sport because they want to race.

While I agree with some of what is being said, many owners of race teams have told me something completely different. There are owners both in the ALMS and GA who see that they may have a future in GA. They would prefer to be in the ALMS. For many that I have talked to, it isn't about money, it's about the real or perceived ability to compete. Many of these people (but not all), would cough up the money for a competitive car, but Audi and Corvette simply won't sell them one. Competitive chassis availability is a far bigger story, then simply it costs too much.

Grand-Am's philophophy is build a solid series, one that can be counted on to be there for years. Eventually, sportscar will make the same mistakes that they always do but we in the US will have a consistant product that will not be affected by the FIA or ACO. The challenge for survival rests squarely on the shoulders of the European faction and their American supporters, ie IMSA. Grand-Am is an American series under American ownership/control with an American focus. The FIA/ACO is a faction under European control with a focus that includes European focus. Support from Europe, and acceptance from European fans are not relevent to Grand-Am or their fans. If Jag and any other European fan is under the impression that they the fan, or that ACO rulesmaking has any bearing on the future of Grand-Am, they are most mistaken. This is why their outcries against Grand-Am baffle me. It has absolutely no bearing on the future of Grand-Am.

The future of proper sportscar racing in North America should have no bearing upon GA's success (or lack thereof). It should rest solely on the success of those managing the ALMS. There is a perception that GA is eating into the ALMS market share, and while that I believe is mostly false it is a perception.

While fans on both sides of the pond of, shall we say traditional sportscar racing, have a fear of GA taking away proper sportscar racing, I will state their fears are based upon false conceptions. Not only will I state this, But a savvy marketer could easily create a series that would be faster than GA, a cost about 1/4 that of Grand Am, and would appeal to traditionalists. It wouldn't take a great deal to put a whole in the side of the DP plan the size of Texas with the right people running it.

While you are accurate in your portrayal of Grand-Am's likely future, to me it is a design that does no favours to road racing, nor Sportscar racing, past or present. It is no secret that many driver's past and present are highly critical of it, as are many longterm fans. While Jag is a European, his thoughts often reflect those of many North Americans.

Kudo's for GrandAm in creating a successful series that has the interest of many team owners, they've done a great job there. It is however a shame that they couldn't use their prowess to design something that raises the profile of the sport, instead of lowering it. I think there is also some err in presentation of this series which I find distasteful. It is a reasonably cost effective (not by any means cheap), mid-level racing series, somewhere between amateur and semi-pro. It is not a top tiered series, and never will be, so it shouldn't have pretenses to be such.

[LouisTheShark]

"Its clear that the DP classes growth is slowing, as more professional teams begin to impose themselves on the series, driving away some amateurs."

Half of the ALMS grid is amateurs. There are a lot of paying drivers in all series, including F1. The backbone of sports car racing has always been the driver/owner and Grand Am and it seems to filter through more and more other series as well. Most privateers want a chance, the problem with sports car racing in the past has been that it was very difficult to buy the same equipment as the top guys. That is why funded drivers/amateurs leave the sport.

"Its only to be expected, we've seen the same in BPR and FIA GT."

I don't know much about BPR, but FIA GT seems to go through stages of privateer then manufacturer, then privateer, then manufacturer based series. I think the key is to keep manufacturers involved without killing off privateers.

"GA will grow further, on and off the track, but lets face it, with the huge grids and quality teams and drivers, if they cannot draw in the fans now, when are they?"

They are drawing more fans at road courses. They created a weekend package that works for tracks. Granted the ISC owned ovals appear to struggle because they just rely on the NASCAR season ticket sale. Yet the weekends technically make money.

"Lets not forget the ALMS is at a low point, so the time to strike a blow was in 2004/5."

The ALMS created its own problems. Grand Am is doing nothing to further their own issues. But as there always has been, if one group can't get their act together and the other group has a plan, the group with the plan will get the entrants. Truth is that professional teams will go were they can make money and it doesn't matter if they run sports cars, open wheel cars, stock cars, or whatever. I think we often get too focused on teams moving from one series to another within the same style of racing when the options are usually much greater.

"I see no difference between GA and Trans-Am, they are identical in my opinion."

There are a lot of differences, cars aside, Grand Am is a endurance series and Trans Am is a sprint series. That fact alone makes the two vastly different.

"The ONLY differecne is that GA wants to become the No.1 (only?) sportscar series in the US."

Everybody wants to be number one, nothing wrong with that. There has never been only one sports car style series in the U.S. (contrary to much internet forum dribble), so the idea that Grand Am can make all the others go away is a bit out of touch with history and reality.

"Therefore I wish to see GA dissapear of the face of the earth. Now, if they can prosper side by side, which we will learn in 2006, fine, I'll enjoy both series."

Only Grand Am can make Grand Am successful and only ALMS can make ALMS successful. It is up to each group to put their best foot forward.

[Vacarella]

EFR
Butch Letizinger
Scott Pruitt
Wayne Taylor
Max Angelilli
Max Papis
Jorg Bergmeister
Louis Diaz
Cort Wagner
Stefan Johansson
Shane Lewis
Mike Borkowski
Chris Dyson
Rob Dyson
Terry Boecheller
Memo Gidley
Bill Auberlen
Randy Pobst
Ralf Kelleners
Hurley Haywoon
Jan Magnussen
Paul Edwards
Nic Jonsson
Fabrizio Gollin
Matteo Bobbi
Craig Stanton
Alex Gurney
The brothers Frisselle
Joey Hand
Justin Marks
Michael McDowell
Oswaldo Negre

And those are Grand-Am regulars. The 05' Rolex 24 assembled a lineup of driving talent second to no other race in racing history. If you can refute that, please recall such a race for us.

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For Nino

[richmini99]

looks like Vacarella beat me to the coment about Grand Am being a "semi-pro series". That list of drivers doesn't look like semi-pro talent to me. I'm sure their all grudingly driving in a "semi-pro series" to put food on the table. I guess James Weaver, and the factory Audi drivers are the "lots" of drivers who wouldn't be caught dead in a DP?

The "lowering the the profile of sportscar" comment made me laugh too. What has "high profile" done for F1 in the US? Try not a "damn thing" on and see how that fits. Someone needs to tell all of those semi-pro drivers in Grand Am that they've lost their gold card membership at Sportscar Elite.