Hans Device

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by JimW

Principally because of the belts.

In a race-prepared vehicle your are secured hard with belts which stretch less (wider and thicker). So you don't hit the steering wheel.

The human body, properly restrained, can withstand huge accelerations. A lap and diagonal belt is nothing like as good. So you have to have the car structure do more of the energy absorption.

That's the simple version anyway.

Regards

Jim

Road going cars allow the belts to stretch somewhat and the air bag helps slow the body down in a crash. The road car colapses some what in the crush zone, All these slow or reduce the energy transfer of the crash, which transfers less energy to the body.

vs

Harness holding a body in a solid and ridged attached race seat, inside a race car with roll cage does not absorble energy, which in a crash transfers that energy to the body. YES the body is held fermily in the race seat, HOWEVER, internal organs, are only held in place by thin tissue, which in a hard impact still move, inside the human body, and can tear. This sudden impact causes internal to move quickly, and in some cases massive internal bleeding, yet there is no evidence of damage on the out side of the body, untill the blood ( hemetoma) forms near the skin.

In short, do what you can to avoid a crash, spin the car, turn sideways to slide along the object instead of going head into the object. what ever you can to change the impact angle and deflect that energy transfer.

[steveng]

Interestingly I can only think of one racing death caused by acute aortic rupture (the injury described above). It was Ricardo Paletti back in the 80s. He hit the back of another car (? Patresse) at the start of a Grand Prix.
I have repaired quite a few of these over the years and I do not really understand the fact that some people die and some don't.
As you say, the heart swings like a bell clapper and causes a discontinuity of the aorta (the main artery coming from the heart). It either just tears off and the poor soul dies instantly or there is a partial rupture and the person has a couple of hours to live. This is where folk like me come in, we repair/replace the damaged segment. Sadly even in a sucessful repair the patient is often left paraplegic as the arteries to the spinal cord are damaged around the rupture.
It is a bit of a lottery. I have seen the injury in a bloke who was only nipping down to collect a carry-out curry when he hit a lamp post yet Ralf Schumacher didn't get hurt when he hit the wall at Indy. Avoidance of crashing seems like a good tactic but when that doesn't work, our necks remain the area to protect....

[Alan Cherry]

Originally Posted by steveng

Interestingly I can only think of one racing death caused by acute aortic rupture (the injury described above). It was Ricardo Paletti back in the 80s. He hit the back of another car (? Patresse) at the start of a Grand Prix.
I have repaired quite a few of these over the years and I do not really understand the fact that some people die and some don't.
As you say, the heart swings like a bell clapper and causes a discontinuity of the aorta (the main artery coming from the heart). It either just tears off and the poor soul dies instantly or there is a partial rupture and the person has a couple of hours to live. This is where folk like me come in, we repair/replace the damaged segment. Sadly even in a sucessful repair the patient is often left paraplegic as the arteries to the spinal cord are damaged around the rupture.
It is a bit of a lottery. I have seen the injury in a bloke who was only nipping down to collect a carry-out curry when he hit a lamp post yet Ralf Schumacher didn't get hurt when he hit the wall at Indy. Avoidance of crashing seems like a good tactic but when that doesn't work, our necks remain the area to protect....

OK, being a non-medical man, to get the best of all worlds (apart from not crashing) what about a large back protector, that looks like a Hans device at the top, but is attched to the body by a large boddice effort - probably a rubbish idea, but it may A) protect the back as designed B) give the neck the same protection as a conventional HANS device - as it's still linking the head to the body C) Would it help the internal organs holding them in place inside a boddice, or would that do nore damage ? also the boddice and back protector would significantly spread any load area ? - just a suggestion All I need to do is get the FIA to make them madatory, control who is allowed to make them, and sit back and watch the millions roll in - who knows - within a couple of years, I might be able to afford a Mclaren type fine !

p.s. I've just ordered a new tin hat which is pre drilled for hans posts. I thought it may be useful in the future when I may buy a Hans device. I checked out the cost of the hans posts ( two bolts with a couple of fancy washers - the site I saw them on, they were £120 plus vat plus postage etc etc - that was just for the bolts, not including fitting. I know things cost a lot to develop, but can anyone on this forum reply explaining that is not profiteering ?

[Alan Cherry]

Apologies - tried to edit the crap spelling, but only possible for 10 minutes after the message is posted.

[midgetman]

Actually, it's very interesting to think that many forms of oval racing, and especially banger racing where accidents are mandatory, make a neck brace compulsory. Not a HANS of course, but a normal neck brace. Does this mean that the organisers are leaving themselves open to litigation?

[Peter Mallett]

Actually it’s not really a case of cost. It can and will become a case of if its out there and you don't use it you will not race. End of story.

If we think its the wrong view than we have a choice.

I do think that we can go over the top. The trouble comes when one of us is standing in front of the wife/girlfriend/husband/boyfriend/children/parents of the deceased.

Work it out for yourselves. If it’s profiteering, refuse to buy it then don't race. As an example look at this thread, Andrew is still not back to 100% health. http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75174

[GBRM]

I personally think it's one of those old arguements and would be very interesting to see the split of peoples ages and experiences of motor racing on this thread towards safety.

I have one years racing behind me and I've jsut turned 30, I got the best/cheapest FIA helmet, gloves, boots (free overralls, thank you Matt Neal!!) and looked at the HANS device but decided the cost of a differant helmet and the fact I got the best Corbeau seat (thanks Colin Folwell) that it was an expense I could not afford in an "older" saloon.

Now I know you can die at 25mph or you can die at 205mph but as racing drivers we all know that and to a degree have to judge what life is worth to us. Both Dad and Tony Lanfranchi always had the same safety answer when asked "Just put a big spike on the outside of Paddock (Brands Hatch) and then see who goes off" and to a degree they were right, a lot of the responsibility is up to the drivers/racers but there's always going to be that moment.

The Hans device is a very interesting example, it's brilliant for single seaters but does that mean it's brilliant for saloon cars? From what I've read no it's not and without harking on my example would be my Dad's crash at Silverstone in 1979 (mentioned on other threads). His helmet came off whilst done up and his seat broke (not mentioning the name but not their fault) and even though he had 100 stiches in his head and numerous spine and skull fractures the doctors said he survived a broken back because the seat broke, so my point is if he had of been wearing a HANS device and modern belts and seat he probably would have been killed because the human body could not have taken the force of the impact, probably in a similar way to Dale Earnhardt.

all I'm trying to say is horses for courses (like AA/RAC cover), make your own mind up..............

N.B. How many people have their race car insured?

[JimW]

Originally Posted by GBRM

. . . The Hans device is a very interesting example, it's brilliant for single seaters but does that mean it's brilliant for saloon cars? From what I've read no it's not . . .

Can you quote a source for this statement?

Jim

[GBRM]

Originally Posted by JimW

Can you quote a source for this statement?

Jim

Sorry Jim, I can't remember the exact article chapter and verse (it was to do with a one-make championship, I remember that much and there was a 10/10ths thread to do with belts and cages too) but it was the degree of inclination vs horizontal load on your neck and also how HANS reacts to side impacts in saloon cars which are more common in BIG accidents in saloon cars and there is more movement then in a tighter single-seater.

Just my opinion but I think there should be more publicity/marketing of the HANS devise if it is good for saloon cars (especially Historic) and I think it's still very expensive but I think it is coming down in price.

As we all know motor racing is dangerous and you have to decide for yourself the cost you place on your safety/health and if I could I'd try and be as safe as possible.

[JimW]

If they reckon it works for NASCAR and WRC rally cars, I think that is a good argument for use in saloons.

Regards

Jim

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by GBRM

The Hans device is a very interesting example, it's brilliant for single seaters but does that mean it's brilliant for saloon cars? From what I've read no it's not

I think this idea stems from the fact that the HANS requires a more widely thought out installation than simply wearing it, and that a single seater is more likely to have the requisite other variables in place; belt angles etc.

There's no reason why a properly prepared saloon can't deliver a suitable HANS environment, and I think I have one in the RX7.

There are plenty of sources suggesting the benefits of HANS, and given I do place a value on not getting killed or, worse, permanently injured racing it was a firm decision to get the full monte when I moved away from my open face helmet into a full face Stand 21.

I suppose I'm of the opinion that when things go wrong at race speeds however much I think I'm in control, for me as an amateur anyway, they seem to go very wrong very quickly. Consequently I didn't want to be wishing I'd spent the money as the wall flashes up ahead.. Even at the speeds we race at, there is a lot of energy at play.

S.

[fazzaz]

The first HANS device was developed for use in a Mazda sedan raced by Jim Downing.

[Burnsie]

Hope you don't mind me joining in here (I'm not a driver, but the HANS device is a piece of equipment which interests me). I was looking at this example on the Demon Tweeks website, and I see that it's offered in 20 degree and 30 degree options. Are these just a personal choice for comfort, or is there another reason behind it?

[SimonY]

Just wondered - does anyone know of statistics that relate to the number of Hans preventable deaths in UK or worldwide motorsport over the last few years? Does anybody know off the top of their head the last driver to die (or be paralysed) in the UK from these types of injuries? Would be interesting to weigh the benefits against some statistics.

burnsie - the angle relates to how reclined the seating position is. For example an F1 driving position requires a 40 degree angle Hans, whereas in a saloon the driver sits quite upright so would only require a 20 degree.

[Burnsie]

Originally Posted by SimonY

burnsie - the angle relates to how reclined the seating position is. For example an F1 driving position requires a 40 degree angle Hans, whereas in a saloon the driver sits quite upright so would only require a 20 degree.

That makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up for me Simon.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by SimonY

Just wondered - does anyone know of statistics that relate to the number of Hans preventable deaths in UK or worldwide motorsport over the last few years? Does anybody know off the top of their head the last driver to die (or be paralysed) in the UK from these types of injuries? Would be interesting to weigh the benefits against some statistics.........

Haven't we been here before? ISTR that no stats were forthcoming then, and I doubt any will now. The HANS salesman's main tools seem to be fear, uncertainty and doubt. There are all shades of opinion from cautious to reckless and everything in between; we perceive risk differently at a personal level. But at least we have a choice - so far.

[Stacy]

There are of course very few fatalities in racing full stop, so you are always playing on small numbers. Similarly I am unaware of the statistics around people being burned in competition nowadays, but equally I wouldn't argue with the logic of ensuring I was decently covered in nomex in the unlikely event of me being trapped in the car in such a scenario.

Having previously discussed HANS and verified the principle with an independant non motorsport friend (but senior in the General Medical Council), I see the HANS as a similar insurance policy - I don't intend to add to that small number.

S.

[R59]

Stacy, you hit the head with the nail! It's an insurance policy.

The figures you should be looking at are the number of people killed (worldwide) in motorsport, from Basal Skull Fracture injuries. Those are the people who would be saved by a HANS.

One is too many.

Some people say "where will it stop". I think we've probably gone as far as we can, short of going to airbags.

Yes, Motor Racing is dangerous, and part of the thrill is the risk, as much as the speed. But you have to draw a line.

Just because the mincer doesn't have a guard on it, doesn't mean you have to shove your fingers in it.

[Al Weyman]

Maybe air bags would be a better option?

[Peter Mallett]

Nope, can't work.

[SimonY]

Originally Posted by racing59

Stacy, you hit the head with the nail! It's an insurance policy.

The figures you should be looking at are the number of people killed (worldwide) in motorsport, from Basal Skull Fracture injuries. Those are the people who would be saved by a HANS.

So do you have those statistics?

I have absolutely no doubt about the effectiveness of the Hans, but it would be nice to have some statistics to quantify the risks. For example if I was looking to upgrade an engine or fit stickier tyres I would make a decision based on the peformance advantage compared to the cost.

And why would you choose a Hans device particularly over the other collar (I forget its name) that has been proven to protect from side impacts as well? (IIRC it doesn't have FIA approval yet) Surely the benefits of that far outway the Hans?

[Alan Cherry]

OK,
Gents (&Ladies)

Still on HANS, but going off in a slightly different direction, any thoughts on the following ? I've just ordered a new Tin Hat (Open Face - although I've still got a perfectly useable full face as spare) to race in a Tin Top. The new Lid has the facility to fit HANS Posts .

1. I believe that i have to have the HANS posts fitted rather than fit them myself - Is this correct, and does it apply even if the series that I run in doesn't specify HANS.( I've found a US firm that does them for 55 dollars )

2. If I used HANS with the full face, I understand that the load would be spread around my face from the anchorage points on the back of the helmet in the event of sudden deceleration. Would the same be true using an open face helmet, or would there be the possibility of strangulation on the neck strap ? - I honestly have no idea if it could be a problem - has anyone any ideas or experiences ?

[Eddy V]

Alan,

1. only "trained" personal are allowed to install the posts. The posts have to be positioned in a certain way.
Prices overhere are about similar to the US and no I am not allowed to do them, but my supplier is.
2. No danger to be strangled with an open helmet. Otherwise FIA would have never allowed them.

Will PM you the cost of posts and fitting. What brand helmet?

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by Alan Cherry

2. If I used HANS with the full face, I understand that the load would be spread around my face from the anchorage points on the back of the helmet in the event of sudden deceleration. Would the same be true using an open face helmet, or would there be the possibility of strangulation on the neck strap ? - I honestly have no idea if it could be a problem - has anyone any ideas or experiences ?

Hi Alan,

I was an open face wearer for some years, but went to full face from Stand21 last year, as a unit with the HANS. Doing some sums on belt stretching with my, er, mass, and looking the proximity of the wheel I realised that in a full impact I may well get closer than I thought..

I have seen HANS on open face, and know people with them, but like you wasn't so sure of the benefits with an open face helmet. As a layman it just didn't sit right with me.

S.

[Alan Cherry]

Eddy,
It's an OMP Jet 3.5 ( The new one )
The Sparco open face I bought towards the end of last year didn't work out - Tried one on in the shop with the sales guy and it was fine. When 'my one' turned up (colours) it felt ok, but I got a blinding headache in the first race I used it (over 1 hour) - headache went almost as soon as i took the Helmet off. Tried it again at Brands for the last Tin Tops last year, uncomfortable - had to revert to my old full face for the 2nd race.