"Fernando, you're faster than Fisi, you can pass him"

[mabs_nsx]

Originally Posted by Gore

I loved it - smart way of getting around a stupid rule.

Would still rather see the back of the rule though.

It's is cheating

[garcon]

No it isn't. As I said before, F1 is a team sport. A load of so called "fans" who know sweet FA about F1 and just wanted to penalise the evil Ferrari team managed to persuade the FIA that something had to change, so the FIA introduced this stupid bloody rule that makes no sense and appears to be unenforceable.

The sooner the FIA sees sense, scraps this team orders rule, and realises that pandering to the noisy but ignorant majority will get them nowhere, the better.

[BootsOntheSide]

If all the criticism of team orders is to do with the way Ferrari used them, why are people complaining about other teams having used them, despite the existance of at least 3 or 4 reasons why this is not quite as bad?

As for Formula 1 being a team sport, ask 100 people at random who the Formula 1 world championship belongs to, and I'm sure 80 or more would name the driver, not the team, especially in situations where the WDC didn't help his team to the WCC.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by garcon

The sooner the FIA sees sense, scraps this team orders rule, and realises that pandering to the noisy but ignorant majority will get them nowhere, the better.

90,000 people took part in the recent FIA survey,i don't think they were all members of this forum.What happened in Austria and Indy (to the shame of F1) was far removed from what happened in Turkey.The "noisy but ignorant majority" keep this 'show' on TV.

[BootsOntheSide]

Kirk, Fernando only pitted one lap before Giancarlo, so he was hardly 'lightly-fuelled', and he could've passed him the traditional way.

[maximus]

Interesting that Renault never had team orders in Canada when it appeared that Fisi held up Alonso, they just told Alonso to pass him on his own.

[Gore]

Originally Posted by mabs_nsx

It's is cheating

It's only cheating if the FIA can come up with a rule to cover what they've decided the public don't want...

[BootsOntheSide]

100,000 Austrians booing a German shouldd've been the only clue required, Gore. Every survey and opinion poll given has been vastly opposed to Austria-style team orders, and the feeling on what we saw yesterday is only slightly better.

[maximus]

Come off it. It was no where near. The Austrian fans were robbed of a proper race winner, where as all that happened yesterday was the faster car was allowed to pass the slower one, who could have held Alonso up for a long time, and judging by what happened in the pit stops, been overtakin anyway.

[runshaw]

I thought team-orders were illegal.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

and the feeling on what we saw yesterday is only slightly better.

boots, i agree with you there was not much difference. RB moved over for MS because schumi was the WDC challanger and needed the points more. the logic behind alonso getting past fisi was the same, an extra 2 points can make all the difference. i'll even agree that whether that kind of decision is made at the begining of the race or at the end race doesn't change much.

but where i differ is that i dont think team orders should be banned. its a team sport and for any team to be successful, teamamtes have to help each other out. for me to change my mind on this someone really needs to convince me F1 is not and has never been a team sport.

[Don K]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I'm a bit confused by this thread. (No change there then). But did they say "you're faster than Kimi" or did they say "you're faster than Fisi?".

They *did* say "you're faster than Fisi".

And this thread (or more precisely: the first post of this thread) suggets that later on they could have said "you're faster than Kimi", which might have made Alonso pass Kimi.
Unless Trulli did allow Alonso to pass him. In that case, Alonso would still not have been able to pass Kimi.



That's why the title of this thread was "Fernando, you're faster than Kimi, you can pass him".

[Valve Bounce]

Originally Posted by garcon

Hmmm. Beer's in the fridge, help yourself, and get me a cold one while you're there.

Merci!

Voila!!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Don K

They *did* say "you're faster than Fisi".

Hmm, well I'm afraid we didn't get team radio at the circuit.

Originally Posted by Don K

And this thread (or more precisely: the first post of this thread) suggets that later on they could have said "you're faster than Kimi", which might have made Alonso pass Kimi.
Unless Trulli did allow Alonso to pass him. In that case, Alonso would still not have been able to pass Kimi.

That's why the title of this thread was "Fernando, you're faster than Kimi, you can pass him".

Ah, well thanks for that. Until now I thought they were telling Fernando he could pass Kimi. Only in that case of course "Team orders" don't count because they are in different teams.

[thejester]

Originally Posted by garcon

No it isn't. As I said before, F1 is a team sport. A load of so called "fans" who know sweet FA about F1 and just wanted to penalise the evil Ferrari team managed to persuade the FIA that something had to change, so the FIA introduced this stupid bloody rule that makes no sense and appears to be unenforceable.

The sooner the FIA sees sense, scraps this team orders rule, and realises that pandering to the noisy but ignorant majority will get them nowhere, the better.

Sorry garcon, mabs is right, it is cheating, technically. However I agree it shouldn't be, it's a stupid rule, highlighted by the fact no one will be punished for plainly and publicly flouting it.

[alfasud]

The biggest difference between Austria 2002 and Hungary 2005 are Red cars vs Blue cars.

Two other differences are...

1. While we didn't hear the order given in Austria, we can guess it was given some time before that last corner. But Rubens didn't let Micheal past until the last moment. So are team orders only bad when they aren't obeyed quickly enough?

2. I don't think team orders in F1 were banned until after Austria 2002, so from a 'legal' point of view, Austria was o.k. (even though we didn't like it) while what we say in Turkey, was Renault finding a loophole to get around a clear team order ban.

The loophole being that you tell the second driver to pass... while making it quite clear what the leading driver has to do, you don't actually tell him to move over.

Team orders are certainly nothing new in Grand Prix racing:
http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ftdt047.html

Originally Posted by grandrix.com

In the 1930s the Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix team was riddled with problems because of team orders. Luigi Fagioli was so frustrated by having to finish behind Rudi Caracciola that he moved to AutoUnion and at a later race clashed with Caracciola and was so irate that he threw a wheel hammer at his old rival in the pits.

[Jordi]

I don't know whether team orders are OK. I'd rather see guys fighting for positions, not giving them. But I don't know if that can be cured with a team order ban.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

100,000 Austrians booing a German shouldd've been the only clue required, Gore. Every survey and opinion poll given has been vastly opposed to Austria-style team orders, and the feeling on what we saw yesterday is only slightly better.

When Austrian and German fans boo a German champ standing on the podium, that says it all. What happened in Austria was shameful.

I don't remember anyone jeering or booing Renault at Istanbul - but maybe some of our more diligent fans can confirm whether this happened.

In my view, comparing the two cases is like comparing cheese with chalk.

I don't believe that What Renault told Alonso to do inTurkey was shameful.

[JeremySmith]

I have just read this whole thread. What I find interesting is how many ways we humans hear and interpret the same piece of information. What I heard yesterday was "Fernando you are faster than Fisi now stop pouncing around and pass him" this is after all what we pay you to do. Team order not really! More a case of get on with it Fernando..

[mac]

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

I don't believe that What Renault told Alonso to do inTurkey was shameful.

I don't believe what Ferrari did in Austria was shameful either. Ferrari did not handle it well - waiting until the last corner.

People booed because of the circumstances - that Ferrari were so dominant (and had been for a while) and they would have loved to have seen someone other than Schu win. That it happened so blatantly and on the last corner made it look bad.

But there is no difference in the fact that the teams were both trying to give their drivers in the best championship positions the best chance of improving that position.

Nothing wrong with that for mine.

[alfasud]

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

I don't remember anyone jeering or booing Renault at Istanbul - but maybe some of our more diligent fans can confirm whether this happened.

I don't think anyone at the track heard it... maybe a few with scanners who can overhear the pit-car communications.

[thejester]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I have just read this whole thread. What I find interesting is how many ways we humans hear and interpret the same piece of information. What I heard yesterday was "Fernando you are faster than Fisi now stop pouncing around and pass him" this is after all what we pay you to do. Team order not really! More a case of get on with it Fernando..

Interesting point. I have noticed hawever a much harsher tone used on the radio to Fisi telling him to 'hurry up' than what is used to FA.

[Marbot]

Let's just ban pit-to-car radio and have an end to it.

[thejester]

You've got my vote.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally Posted by mac

I don't believe what Ferrari did in Austria was shameful either. Ferrari did not handle it well - waiting until the last corner.

People booed because of the circumstances - that Ferrari were so dominant (and had been for a while) and they would have loved to have seen someone other than Schu win. That it happened so blatantly and on the last corner made it look bad.

But there is no difference in the fact that the teams were both trying to give their drivers in the best championship positions the best chance of improving that position.

Nothing wrong with that for mine.

The fans who jeered SchM seems to have a different opinion.

And the fact that the SchM declined to stand on the top step of the podium seemed to indicate to me that SchM knew what he did was morally wrong. Moreover, it was reported that Rubens was reluctant to move over and asked whether SchM wanted it, and he was told that SchM had been consulted. SchM deprived Rubens of a very clearcut and well deserved win.

Also, at the time Ferrari was the dominant car (as the results in the archives will verify), and SchM was in a dominant position in the championship. The chance of anyone beating SchM in the drivers championship ranged from the remote to the non-existant. All this was discussed in great detail in this forum at the time, and I don't recall that many here supported Ferrari's stand at the time.

Right now, Renault are not the dominant car, and at the time the request for him to pass Fisi was made, Fernando was not in a dominant position in the championship - there was a chance that Kimi could catch up with him in points for the championship. And I don't think Fernando deprived Fisi of a well deserved and clearcut win, do you?

So for the benefit of those who would argue the two cases are similar, why don't we have a poll here to see how the forum members here really think on this issue!!